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Weekly Spooky
Weekly Spooky
Scary stories, urban legends, haunted places, cryptids and dark folklore with Henrique Couto. New nightmares throughout the week. Halloween all year long.
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Oct. 9, 2026

Cutting Deep into Horror | Hellraiser (1987): Pinhead, Desire & Body Horror

Cutting Deep into Horror | Hellraiser (1987): Pinhead, Desire & Body Horror
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Cutting Deep Into Horror Scary Fiction

Hellraiser (1987) turns desire into body horror. Henrique and Rachael revisit Clive Barker's original film, from Pinhead and the Cenobites to the Lament Configuration puzzle box. Are these beings evil, or do they operate beyond human morality? Cutting Deep into Horror explores Julia's obsession with Frank and the betrayal at the heart of a crumbling marriage. We unpack the ending, religious imagery, practical effects, and Christopher Young's haunting score. Add this horror classic to your Halloween watchlist, then open the box with us for a movie discussion about pleasure, pain, and control.

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Story submissions: WeeklySpooky@gmail.com

WEBVTT

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Welcome to your heck.

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Okay.

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Oh, wow.

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That's a lot of blood. And can we address the.

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Blood to some, hemoglobin to others.

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Well, yeah, that's kind of how, like, synonyms work.

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But.

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Come along now. We must attach chains to your eyelids.

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So that you may file your W-7-4 tax form.

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Oh, God, no!

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A form only invented in heck.

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Ah, no! Not heck.

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No.

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Taxes are the worst.

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They're pretty bad. Yeah. Oh, God.

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This podcast is about why horror scares us. What deep, dark, secret,

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scary cinema shines a light on. The discussions are frank

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and involve conversations about abuse, trauma, and mental health. There

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are also spoilers, so keep that in mind too. Now,

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sharpen your machetes and straight razors, because this is Cutting

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Deep into Horror.

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Hello, my spookies, and welcome back to Cutting Deep into Horror.

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I am, of course, your host, Enrique Couto, here with

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my co-host, Rachel Rodolphe. Rachel, how are you?

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I'm doing good.

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Good. Well, spooky season is already rolling along, so we

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wanted to do a little, I guess, a little appeal

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to the classics.

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Yeah.

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For October. Yeah. Because... I don't know. It's a classic.

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That's one of those tricky things, though. People were arguing

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that 80s movies were classics when I was a late teenager,

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which would have not even been... They were barely 20

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years old?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, they were really young. Because this film we're covering tonight, Hellraiser,

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from 1987, so it's one year younger than me.

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It's the same age as me.

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That means it's almost 40 years old. Okay.

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I'm going to go just lay down in the dirt now.

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No, why? Because your back hurting? That's the only thing

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that gets it to stop. But this is obviously considered

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a classic in the realm of horror and the kind

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of franchise horror era that started in the late 70s

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for the most part with Halloween. Halloween spawned sequels, then

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Friday the 13th spawned sequels, then Nightmare on Elm Street

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spawned sequels, Child's Place, spawned sequels. Hellraiser obviously spawned many sequels,

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even Critters, Wishmaster, Candyman. It got to a point where

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that was the goal.

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Yeah.

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If you made a horror film was that it would

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be a franchise and that you would have lots and

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lots of movies. And while Hellraiser didn't quite have the

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success of Nightmare on Elm Street or Friday the 13th

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or Halloween as far as it's I believe it was

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after part four, Hellraiser went straight to video.

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Oh, that's pretty early on.

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Yeah. Child's Play went straight to video. I want to

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say part five was the last one that was in

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theaters or might've been part four. Nightmare on Elm Street

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never went straight to video. Friday never went to straight

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to home video. Halloween never went straight to home video.

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Critters went pretty much immediately straight to home video. I

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think after part two.

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Yeah.

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Candyman was straight to video parts two and three, I believe.

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Two might've been in theaters briefly. Wishmaster, I think the

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first one was the only one that was in theaters.

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So anyway, but Hellraiser, so Hellraiser has that kind of

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delineation of being a major horror franchise that ended up

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going direct to video and becoming really low budget really quickly. Yeah.

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And having some later sequels that are maligned for making

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no sense and in the series or whatever you want

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to call it. And also having a couple of really

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questionable later sequels and then a quasi remake from a

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few years back.

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Yeah.

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But we're talking as always, when we talk about any

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horror film, that is the start of a franchise. We

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are only talking about the first film as a self-contained thing.

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Yeah.

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For the most part.

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Yeah.

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Anything that's referencing the later films is just trivia. And yeah.

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Yeah, because if we were to try to discuss the

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Hellraiser franchise in totality, we'd be here a while.

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Eh, maybe not.

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Well, I guess it does depend.

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I think that there's a lot to like about some

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of those later Hellraiser sequels.

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Oh, yeah.

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But there are some fair criticisms. Like, there's one of

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them that a lot of people felt like it was

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just a detective script.

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I remember that one, and I actually kind of liked

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that one.

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I did, too. But a lot of people, like, I

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feel like they just crammed Pinhead into it. I found

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no evidence that's literally what happened, but I understand why

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people would want to think that. Yeah. And there are

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a lot of examples in not really as much horror,

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but in movies in general and movie series where that happens.

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Die Hard 2 was based on a different book than

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Die Hard, the first Die Hard film. They adapted a

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different novel and changed the character to John McClane. Die

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Hard 3 was a spec script that had been floating

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around Hollywood for a decade and That they took and

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then made it John McClane. Oh, cool. So it does happen.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, there's a lot to get into with Hellraiser.

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Of course, it's Clive Barker's first film as a director,

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although he did not direct many films.

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Yeah, because it's this and well, did he direct Candyman?

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No. No. No.

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And Candyman was very loosely. It was a very small film.

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story that Candyman was based on the original Candyman we

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went over it he was Irish yeah it didn't take

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place in Chicago it was like very different it's still

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an interesting short story the movie I think is excellent

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we've talked about it on the show but but with

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Hellraiser I think Barker maybe maybe only got back into

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the director's chair maybe two more times for some reason

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his Wikipedia is not giving me a list of movies

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he directed that's how few I guess he Directed that

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they feel like they don't need to list them. He

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lists his books like crazy because he wrote so many books.

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Because in the 90s especially, Clive Barker was like the

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guy you read to show you were way cooler than

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Stephen King. Because Stephen King was like, that's what normies

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are afraid of. I'm into Clive Barker. I'm into torture

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and weird psychosexual stuff.

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Yeah. The really dark shit.

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Yeah.

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Oh, wow. Okay. So he directed a few more than

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I realized, although these two I think are shorts. Hellraiser first,

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and then Nightbreed in 1990, which became legendary for having

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the producers mess with it. And then eventually the actual

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director's cut was slowly being circulated. And then maybe five

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years ago, the cabal cut, as they called it, finally

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got put out into the world. I think Nightbreed's all right.

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It's not a great horror film, not a bad horror film.

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And then his final feature as director, I don't, forgot,

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I just watched this one for the first time three

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weeks ago, is Lord of Illusions, which I know you

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haven't seen for sure, but I liked it fine. But yeah,

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he did really make a huge splash as a director.

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And there were claims that he barely directed Hellraiser. Oh, really?

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I don't think that they're really that accurate. It's kind

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of when people try to claim that Tobey Hooper didn't

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direct Poltergeist. I'm like, why are you being so negative

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about Well, people try this. So the claim on Poltergeist

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is that Toby Hooper was there and directing, but that

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Steven Spielberg actually directed it. And there are all these

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claims that aren't really true that Spielberg couldn't direct Poltergeist

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because of some contractual thing. So he hired Toby Hooper,

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but then he was like influencing him or whatever. And

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his influence is all over the movie, but I don't,

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that I've never heard anybody who worked on it say

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that Toby wasn't day in and day out working on it.

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But to give you context, there are about 40 films that,

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maybe a little less, that are based on novels, novellas,

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or short stories by Clive Barker. So he's definitely had

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a lot of pieces produced.

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Yeah.

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And supposedly he wanted to do Hellraiser himself because he

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was unhappy with the way others had turned out.

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Yeah, that's what I've heard. The story I've heard.

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Where'd you hear that?

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Internet.

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Well, then it's true.

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It has to be true.

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That's the way it works. Yeah. But yeah, so, and

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Hellraiser's always been seen as Pinhead- Being the, depending on

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who you'd ask, especially back when I was a kid,

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it being Freddy, Jason and Pinhead or Freddy, Jason and Leatherface.

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Yeah.

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Pinhead was always in there, even though in reality, the

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movies were a lot smaller scale and a lot less

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ubiquitous in some ways. But Pinhead was ubiquitous.

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Yeah.

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Which is extra funny because he's barely in the film,

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the first film.

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Yeah.

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And I don't know if you knew this, but for those,

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first of all, for those who don't, who've never seen

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Hellraiser before. that's bizarre, but you need to get a,

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get ahead and watching that. I believe it's on to be,

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and I'm just, I'm double checking now, but it's pretty

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readily available to watch.

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Yeah.

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It's free to watch on to be Pluto TV, Amazon

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prime video with your subscription plex that you can rent

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it anywhere you rent your movie so it's readily available

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yeah but originally the wife character was meant to be

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the recurring character if there were.

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Sequels really what was her name julia.

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Julia yeah originally she was meant to be the reoccurring

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evil That's.

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Really interesting because especially on this watch through, I noticed

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how she and Frank are truly the villains, the bad guys.

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The Cenobites obviously are not good guys.

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Well, it depends on how you look at it.

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Well, yeah.

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Demons to some, angels to others.

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Well, their whole thing in the first film is that

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you can only get them by summoning them in a

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very specific way.

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Yeah.

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So why would you claim you're innocent? If you were

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trying to solve the lament or whatever.

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The lament configuration.

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Yeah.

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But Peter Atkins, a screenwriter, recalled plans to build a

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continuing series, but it was based entirely around Julia. But

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Pinhead's popularity completely changed that mindset. And Claire Higgins, who

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played Julia, she was in the second film, but she

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didn't want to be a recurring horror villain.

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Okay.

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So it kind of pushed it away. Okay.

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Yeah.

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Very interesting. As we were watching it, I just noticed,

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especially for the first, I'd say, two acts, the film

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is almost more of a family drama.

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I think it's a marriage drama. That's two sides of

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the same spiky coin. But I think it's a marriage

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drama because it's about their marriage falling apart and his

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wife being obsessed with Frank. while Frank is obsessed with pleasure,

228
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for lack of a better term. The story of Hellraiser

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is basically, I'm not going to mince words because I've

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always found Hellraiser funnier if you describe it really plainly.

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It's about a guy who is so into dirty, kinky, weird,

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blasphemous sex that he decides that the next way to

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really get his rocks off is to summon demons to

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to tear him apart basically yeah so he gets torn

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apart ends up stuck in an attic in his old

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childhood home meanwhile his brother who is larry who is

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00:12:25.090 --> 00:12:27.990
not a bad dude at all he's about as square

238
00:12:28.070 --> 00:12:31.029
as it gets yeah and his wife julia who is

239
00:12:31.929 --> 00:12:38.429
secretly twisted they're moving into this house Larry accidentally bleeds upstairs.

240
00:12:38.529 --> 00:12:42.070
The blood actually kind of summons Frank back, suggesting that

241
00:12:42.110 --> 00:12:45.860
somehow Frank wasn't actually killed by the Cenobites we briefly

242
00:12:45.889 --> 00:12:47.980
see at the beginning who have come to tear his

243
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:51.519
soul apart. And now Frank is trying to get more

244
00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:54.279
and more blood to become more powerful. And while all

245
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:57.259
this is happening, Larry's daughter is stuck in the middle.

246
00:12:57.700 --> 00:12:57.840
Yeah.

247
00:12:58.649 --> 00:13:02.909
That's really what the movie is. I mean, the Cenobites

248
00:13:03.070 --> 00:13:06.049
are a major point, but they're more of a sticking point,

249
00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:07.029
not a story point.

250
00:13:07.289 --> 00:13:07.769
Exactly.

251
00:13:07.820 --> 00:13:13.059
The Cenobites are the, the, the supernatural element, but they

252
00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:15.879
leave Frank to be Frank for most of the film.

253
00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:20.419
And Frank is terrifying. He's a skinless monster who has

254
00:13:20.620 --> 00:13:24.570
no sense of right or wrong. Yeah. Only of what

255
00:13:24.620 --> 00:13:26.250
he wants and what amuses him.

256
00:13:26.730 --> 00:13:26.889
Yeah.

257
00:13:27.419 --> 00:13:29.610
He's pretty much, I would say, like the ultimate definition

258
00:13:29.620 --> 00:13:30.230
of a hedonist.

259
00:13:30.509 --> 00:13:33.789
I was just going to say that. Frank is what

260
00:13:33.850 --> 00:13:38.830
happens when you take hedonism to the ultimate extreme. And

261
00:13:38.970 --> 00:13:41.250
they do a really good job of showing you, you know,

262
00:13:41.289 --> 00:13:44.620
within the first five minutes of the film, what that is,

263
00:13:44.769 --> 00:13:47.179
what that entails. And it's not great.

264
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.940
No, it's not. Depends on whose side you're on. But yeah,

265
00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.000
that's pretty much the rundown. Because the other thing is

266
00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:57.509
a lot of people forget much like other film series,

267
00:13:57.549 --> 00:14:03.090
franchise startups, that this is not like the other Hellraiser movies.

268
00:14:04.049 --> 00:14:06.769
And it's not even just horror franchises. The first Rambo movie,

269
00:14:06.809 --> 00:14:09.629
people forget what First Blood is actually like. It's totally

270
00:14:09.669 --> 00:14:12.240
different than you're thinking if you're remembering a kind of

271
00:14:12.269 --> 00:14:16.120
amalgamation of all the other Rambo movies as one. So

272
00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:20.679
what was, well, my first time watching Hellraiser was on cable. Oh, fun.

273
00:14:20.860 --> 00:14:26.370
I was probably six. I'm serious. It was the first

274
00:14:26.429 --> 00:14:30.389
horror film. And I can't claim 100% that it was

275
00:14:30.490 --> 00:14:32.789
the first Hellraiser. I can only say that was when

276
00:14:32.830 --> 00:14:35.690
I was exposed to Hellraiser. But it was one of

277
00:14:35.710 --> 00:14:37.370
the first horror films to give me a nightmare. I

278
00:14:37.389 --> 00:14:39.490
had a nightmare about Pinhead when I was very young.

279
00:14:40.049 --> 00:14:44.110
Oh, yeah. Pinhead is terrifying as a character.

280
00:14:44.129 --> 00:14:46.309
If you're afraid of that kind of thing. If you're

281
00:14:46.330 --> 00:14:49.769
afraid of British people. Well, yeah. But that was my

282
00:14:49.809 --> 00:14:52.240
first time basically seeing it. What about you?

283
00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:56.279
Definitely the first time was watching it with you. This

284
00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:00.990
would have been 10 years ago, but I'd always been

285
00:15:01.230 --> 00:15:07.509
curious about the Hellraiser franchise just because the entire premise

286
00:15:07.590 --> 00:15:13.299
sounded so different from other horror franchises that I would

287
00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:16.049
hear about. And so I was kind of like really

288
00:15:16.090 --> 00:15:18.679
intrigued by that. When you gave me the chance to like,

289
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.340
you were like, well, let's pick out some horror movies

290
00:15:21.379 --> 00:15:23.940
to watch. And when I finally said, let's watch Hellraiser.

291
00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:27.419
And you were like, hell yeah. And it was everything

292
00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:32.929
that I expected and but also defied expectations because I'd

293
00:15:32.990 --> 00:15:37.029
obviously heard through pop culture more about like the sequels

294
00:15:37.169 --> 00:15:40.860
and just the general, like you said, the amalgamation of

295
00:15:41.350 --> 00:15:44.950
Of the whole franchise rather than just what this one

296
00:15:45.470 --> 00:15:46.210
movie was.

297
00:15:46.750 --> 00:15:49.419
And the themes are pretty consistent, even though the films

298
00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.899
are super different from each other. The themes of sin

299
00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:58.879
and vengeance and decadence and death and sex and all

300
00:15:58.899 --> 00:16:01.669
that's in almost all of them to some extent, especially

301
00:16:01.690 --> 00:16:06.250
the early ones. And yeah, definitely. I think it carved

302
00:16:06.309 --> 00:16:11.200
its way into horror very fairly. by being an interesting,

303
00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:17.220
albeit a strange, stab at horror at the time. It

304
00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:21.700
was 1987. The slasher movie was still king, although it

305
00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:25.639
was dying off a bit. And then you get Pinhead

306
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.759
and Hellraiser, something I don't think people were really expecting

307
00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:32.610
so much. But when we get back, we'll talk more

308
00:16:32.690 --> 00:16:37.289
about the gruesome specifics of Hellraiser after this.

309
00:16:45.549 --> 00:16:49.830
So the first time we watched the film, and even

310
00:16:49.870 --> 00:16:53.000
watching it again this time with you, the thing that

311
00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:59.639
really caught me is how quickly the whole lore is

312
00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:06.160
established without any long exposition or anything. I just, pretty quickly,

313
00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:09.640
we see Frank getting the box, we see him solving

314
00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.420
the box, and then within five minutes he's torn apart.

315
00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:16.619
So we understand, maybe not the fine details, but we

316
00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:19.880
kind of understand the rules of this world pretty early on.

317
00:17:20.339 --> 00:17:20.539
Yeah.

318
00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:25.069
He's clearly traveling the world looking for something.

319
00:17:25.509 --> 00:17:25.730
Yeah.

320
00:17:25.750 --> 00:17:30.849
Meets up with this odd, nondescript Asian gentleman who sells

321
00:17:30.890 --> 00:17:34.329
him the box and seems very happy to sell it

322
00:17:34.369 --> 00:17:34.650
to him.

323
00:17:34.910 --> 00:17:35.150
Yeah.

324
00:17:35.589 --> 00:17:38.740
And then he's in a room alone, surrounded by candles,

325
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:42.180
trying to solve this puzzle box, which I always thought

326
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.619
was a nice touch. Especially considering I believe the 80s

327
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:47.359
was like the height of the Rubik's Cube.

328
00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:48.319
Yeah.

329
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:50.859
So I think that's funny because it's a little it's

330
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:51.279
a box.

331
00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:51.819
It is.

332
00:17:52.059 --> 00:17:52.220
Yeah.

333
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.259
Just a little just a thing. And I've especially this

334
00:17:56.299 --> 00:17:58.700
time watching it through again, but I've always noticed like

335
00:17:58.779 --> 00:18:01.539
how to solve the box. You kind of sit there

336
00:18:01.579 --> 00:18:04.980
and just caress it and touch it and everything. And

337
00:18:05.089 --> 00:18:08.509
it looks really sexual. The whole movie is sexual. But

338
00:18:09.009 --> 00:18:12.710
even solving the box, something as simple as solving a

339
00:18:12.750 --> 00:18:16.049
puzzle box. It's got this sensuousness to it.

340
00:18:16.069 --> 00:18:17.839
I think that's just you just putting that on there

341
00:18:17.859 --> 00:18:20.920
because you're weird. No, you're not wrong. I always got

342
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.119
the sense that the real secret of solving the puzzle

343
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.440
box was that it comes from almost letting it co-opt

344
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:27.099
you a little bit.

345
00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:27.819
Yeah.

346
00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:28.440
Yeah.

347
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.910
Like you let it tell you how to touch it almost.

348
00:18:32.509 --> 00:18:32.750
Yeah.

349
00:18:32.789 --> 00:18:35.049
It's like you have to listen to this darker voice

350
00:18:35.589 --> 00:18:38.029
somewhere that would tell you how to open it. Of course,

351
00:18:38.549 --> 00:18:43.400
as we progress, Watch the movie more later on. It

352
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.839
gets opened by somebody who doesn't realize what it is,

353
00:18:46.819 --> 00:18:49.369
which could have just been a fluke. Although then if

354
00:18:49.410 --> 00:18:53.029
you pay, if you count the later sequels, it's that

355
00:18:53.069 --> 00:18:56.589
there was some kind of predestined thing with, oh gosh,

356
00:18:56.609 --> 00:18:57.089
what's her name?

357
00:18:57.849 --> 00:18:58.670
Kirstie?

358
00:18:58.869 --> 00:18:59.269
Kirstie.

359
00:19:00.089 --> 00:19:05.029
But yeah, I don't know.

360
00:19:05.049 --> 00:19:05.170
No, no.

361
00:19:06.049 --> 00:19:08.509
Like you said at the beginning, we're just taking this

362
00:19:08.589 --> 00:19:12.220
movie as itself. If you were to take the whole lore,

363
00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.900
then yeah, there is like this predestination, like fate sort

364
00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:20.309
of thing going on. But when you take this film

365
00:19:20.450 --> 00:19:25.029
for what it is, it kind of seems like the

366
00:19:25.170 --> 00:19:28.450
only amount of fate would be that it would be

367
00:19:28.470 --> 00:19:33.039
your fate to suffer the consequences if you go trying

368
00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:39.049
to solve the box. There isn't any predestination of necessarily

369
00:19:39.170 --> 00:19:42.000
who opens the box. It's just once it's in your hands,

370
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:45.420
you succumb to touching it and then opening it.

371
00:19:46.069 --> 00:19:49.769
What the Cenobites even say, you opened it, we came. Yeah.

372
00:19:49.789 --> 00:19:52.339
That's like the entirety of their argument, of their reason.

373
00:19:52.710 --> 00:19:53.210
Exactly.

374
00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:55.710
And their gig is to torment.

375
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:56.460
Yeah.

376
00:19:56.539 --> 00:20:00.339
To cause suffering of the flesh. The famous line was

377
00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:02.480
demons to some angels to others.

378
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:03.019
Yeah.

379
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.220
And I like that because I feel like that is ambiguous.

380
00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:07.880
Mm-hmm.

381
00:20:08.589 --> 00:20:12.069
They don't really spell out what that means or entails,

382
00:20:13.049 --> 00:20:16.490
whether it means that there are people who want to

383
00:20:16.529 --> 00:20:23.029
be murdered horribly or tormented horribly. Yeah. Or if it means,

384
00:20:23.049 --> 00:20:27.410
I guess my point is, is it that punishment is freedom?

385
00:20:28.430 --> 00:20:31.190
Is it that being punished is good? If you're bad,

386
00:20:31.549 --> 00:20:33.589
if you're evil, if you're wicked, that it's good to

387
00:20:33.630 --> 00:20:37.529
be punished, therefore angels to some. Okay. Or is it

388
00:20:37.710 --> 00:20:40.839
what you get, angels to some, I don't know who

389
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:44.019
that would be, demons to everyone who encounters them.

390
00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:44.420
Yeah.

391
00:20:44.500 --> 00:20:47.079
Because there is this whole argument, this whole concept that

392
00:20:47.099 --> 00:20:49.599
the Cenobites are morally neutral.

393
00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:50.619
Yeah.

394
00:20:51.019 --> 00:20:52.140
I don't know how you feel about that.

395
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:57.670
I think that I could see it more than other people.

396
00:20:58.589 --> 00:21:04.970
characters in horror franchises especially with this first movie but

397
00:21:05.470 --> 00:21:07.809
they do kind of turn heel a bit but then

398
00:21:07.849 --> 00:21:11.289
again they never really actually make any promises their only

399
00:21:11.369 --> 00:21:14.950
promise is if you solve the box they'll.

400
00:21:14.730 --> 00:21:18.549
Come yeah that's it potentially if you unsolve it they

401
00:21:18.569 --> 00:21:22.450
go away yeah sort of yeah well that's I would

402
00:21:22.490 --> 00:21:24.410
say that they're very maybe I don't know if there

403
00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:29.690
are any other major franchise villains that are Potentially neutral,

404
00:21:30.009 --> 00:21:35.849
morally speaking. Freddy Krueger's straight needle. I mean, Jason's a

405
00:21:36.029 --> 00:21:39.150
cold-blooded killer. Yeah, he's supposed to be like a traumatized

406
00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:43.880
child or something, but he's still killing. Leatherface kills and

407
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:46.839
knows it, even though he's mentally all over the place,

408
00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:49.240
depending on which... But he takes the joy in the

409
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:53.339
killing and stuff like that. He's the most cold-blooded of

410
00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:55.559
all of them, almost, next to Freddy Krueger, as far

411
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:57.269
as he just kills because he likes to kill.

412
00:21:57.529 --> 00:21:57.700
Yeah.

413
00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:00.069
Yeah, so see what I mean? I don't know, but

414
00:22:00.089 --> 00:22:02.109
the Cenobites could be morally neutral.

415
00:22:03.250 --> 00:22:06.450
I guess you could argue, if you want to go there,

416
00:22:06.470 --> 00:22:11.250
that the alien is morally neutral, because it's just a creature.

417
00:22:11.269 --> 00:22:17.089
Yeah, maybe, but I think that morally neutral requires an observation,

418
00:22:17.210 --> 00:22:21.130
and since it's a monster and it's the antagonist... Yeah,

419
00:22:21.170 --> 00:22:23.170
that makes sense. Because what I mean is, when you

420
00:22:23.190 --> 00:22:26.210
look at the Cenobites, the way they talk... It makes

421
00:22:26.269 --> 00:22:30.390
them sound like they're explorers that operate beyond the ordinary

422
00:22:30.470 --> 00:22:36.299
confines of good and evil. Yes. Right? Yes. So there's

423
00:22:36.339 --> 00:22:39.519
that idea that what they do is provide experiences humans

424
00:22:39.579 --> 00:22:42.740
can't understand. Mm-hmm. And maybe that's what they mean by

425
00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.859
angels to some, demons to others, because it's up to

426
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:49.640
your interpretation, which is why I'm saying they're neutral. Yeah.

427
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:53.059
Because it is always ultimately up to the interpretation.

428
00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:57.089
Yeah. Well, yeah. But then- The counter argument would be Kirstie,

429
00:22:57.109 --> 00:23:00.789
because she summons them by accident. They still are going

430
00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:03.890
to kill her and torment her for eternity and tear

431
00:23:03.950 --> 00:23:06.819
her soul apart. And her torment will be legendary even

432
00:23:06.859 --> 00:23:10.160
in hell. All the great quotes from the film. But

433
00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.880
they then do go after her even after they make

434
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:14.500
a deal with her.

435
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:15.900
Yeah.

436
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:18.599
But see, that's what I'm thinking, though, is they don't

437
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:24.640
ever actually confirm with her that they'll let her go.

438
00:23:25.450 --> 00:23:27.990
If she gives them Frank, it's more just, we want

439
00:23:28.009 --> 00:23:30.670
to take Frank, so we'll see what happens when you

440
00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:32.490
take us to him sort of thing.

441
00:23:32.690 --> 00:23:32.910
Yeah.

442
00:23:32.930 --> 00:23:35.210
They seem to imply it, but it's like they come

443
00:23:35.329 --> 00:23:36.730
after her in a technicality.

444
00:23:37.130 --> 00:23:37.390
Yeah.

445
00:23:38.109 --> 00:23:39.849
So that's one of the things I've always found the

446
00:23:39.890 --> 00:23:43.869
most interesting about the Cenobites is that level of kind

447
00:23:43.910 --> 00:23:48.029
of ambiguity. Mm-hmm. Are they evil or are they something

448
00:23:48.230 --> 00:23:51.680
else entirely? Because they're clearly not neighbors.

449
00:23:52.180 --> 00:23:52.599
Yeah.

450
00:23:53.259 --> 00:23:54.559
There's something up with them.

451
00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:55.059
Yeah.

452
00:23:55.099 --> 00:23:57.640
I don't know. What was your first... Because I don't

453
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.099
really remember a time before I knew Hellraiser because I

454
00:24:00.140 --> 00:24:03.779
was so young. What was your first... You had seen

455
00:24:03.940 --> 00:24:04.779
Pinhead and stuff.

456
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:05.339
Mm-hmm.

457
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.420
And you'd seen maybe clips and this or that. What

458
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.809
was your first impression when you first saw the Cenobites

459
00:24:11.849 --> 00:24:16.289
come out? When you saw Chatter and... Butterball. Butterball. Yeah.

460
00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:18.109
What was your first reaction?

461
00:24:18.650 --> 00:24:22.940
My first... Well, my first reaction was... Honestly, I could

462
00:24:23.089 --> 00:24:28.069
understand why Pinhead and the female Cenobite were like the

463
00:24:28.109 --> 00:24:33.450
poster children. Because Chatter and Butterball are still terrifying, but

464
00:24:33.569 --> 00:24:37.740
those two on their own just really make it. And

465
00:24:38.059 --> 00:24:43.279
the more that Penn had talked as the mouthpiece of

466
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.900
all of the Cenobites, I realized, oh, this is one

467
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:51.660
of my favorite villains in horror because of how complex

468
00:24:51.700 --> 00:24:56.740
they are and how morally ambiguous they are. I want

469
00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:00.869
to say at that point we'd watched Nightmare on Elm

470
00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:02.920
Street and Halloween and.

471
00:25:05.670 --> 00:25:11.130
Texas Chainsaw Massacre, but we hadn't watched Child's Play or

472
00:25:11.549 --> 00:25:19.640
Candyman yet. So, yeah, and Candyman's a little morally ambiguous,

473
00:25:19.940 --> 00:25:23.680
not nearly on this level, but he's got that whole

474
00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:27.029
tortured artist. In the movie, he was a slave, so

475
00:25:27.049 --> 00:25:30.250
there's a little bit of him taking power back sort

476
00:25:30.289 --> 00:25:30.670
of thing.

477
00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:32.569
Yeah, I don't know if I'd call him, I agree,

478
00:25:32.670 --> 00:25:35.430
I don't know if I'd call him morally ambiguous. But

479
00:25:35.490 --> 00:25:39.190
he certainly has a empathetic origin.

480
00:25:39.529 --> 00:25:40.470
Yeah, there you go.

481
00:25:40.529 --> 00:25:42.910
Which Jason has an empathetic origin.

482
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:43.440
Yes.

483
00:25:43.619 --> 00:25:46.380
Freddie does not have an empathetic origin. Chucky does not

484
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:50.940
have an empathetic origin. Leatherface, you could argue depending on which, well,

485
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:52.579
because he doesn't have an origin unless you go into

486
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:53.200
later movies.

487
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:53.940
Yeah.

488
00:25:54.099 --> 00:25:56.240
And there are versions of his backstory where he was

489
00:25:56.289 --> 00:25:59.890
a kidnapped baby. Well, kidnaps is a strong word. A

490
00:25:59.950 --> 00:26:05.089
taken baby. or adopted baby that he was mentally stunted

491
00:26:05.150 --> 00:26:08.069
or duh. So then he's just doing whatever he's taught because,

492
00:26:08.890 --> 00:26:10.849
and he's just growing up around people who are completely

493
00:26:10.910 --> 00:26:13.609
perverted as far as the concept of right and wrong

494
00:26:13.670 --> 00:26:16.970
and evil and murder. And yeah. Yeah. So he has

495
00:26:17.009 --> 00:26:19.750
a little bit of an empathetic background. You could almost

496
00:26:19.849 --> 00:26:22.279
give the alien, like you were saying, an empathetic background,

497
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:25.220
except it really does just exist. At least in the

498
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:27.819
first movie, again, only looking at one movie, it does

499
00:26:27.859 --> 00:26:30.390
exist to just destroy, right? So it would be, I

500
00:26:30.410 --> 00:26:32.230
think it'd be different if it wasn't on their ship.

501
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:33.220
Yeah.

502
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:34.180
What's a little bit different.

503
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:37.900
It would be different if it's well, but you'd want

504
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:40.619
to stick with just the first movie though. Cause the,

505
00:26:40.700 --> 00:26:42.599
all the sequels of alien is yeah, they do find

506
00:26:42.619 --> 00:26:45.839
the planet and they're still just as horrendous. And deadly.

507
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.980
Yeah, you can dabble with it. It's more because that

508
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:51.740
could eat up an entire show all by itself if

509
00:26:51.779 --> 00:26:54.109
we dived into all of the alien films.

510
00:26:54.150 --> 00:26:56.049
Yeah, so I'm going to put that can of worms away.

511
00:26:56.069 --> 00:26:57.950
We should do aliens sometime, though.

512
00:26:57.970 --> 00:27:00.690
We really should. I would love that. I'll put that

513
00:27:01.109 --> 00:27:03.529
in our list of movies to cover eventually.

514
00:27:03.750 --> 00:27:04.130
If you want.

515
00:27:04.230 --> 00:27:08.210
But yeah, so that's what really struck me is the

516
00:27:08.430 --> 00:27:13.009
complexity and the moral ambiguity of And again, going back

517
00:27:13.089 --> 00:27:15.970
to Clive Barker did a great job of giving you

518
00:27:16.130 --> 00:27:21.309
just enough lore to get you hooked. And throughout the

519
00:27:21.410 --> 00:27:25.009
whole movie, you get the feeling that there is so

520
00:27:25.089 --> 00:27:29.150
much more to the Cenobites and the puzzle box and

521
00:27:29.190 --> 00:27:32.240
the world that they inhabit. There's so much more to it.

522
00:27:32.630 --> 00:27:36.390
And you get little tastes. But he does a great

523
00:27:36.450 --> 00:27:39.829
job of staying restrained with the world building so that

524
00:27:39.849 --> 00:27:43.910
when it doesn't overtake the movie. The movie really is

525
00:27:44.069 --> 00:27:46.529
mostly about Larry and Julia.

526
00:27:46.869 --> 00:27:52.230
Yeah. And their family dynamic. Yeah. And Julia's obsession with Frank. Well,

527
00:27:52.289 --> 00:27:54.799
and before, so to stay on the Cenobites just a

528
00:27:54.819 --> 00:27:57.359
little bit longer, do you know what the term Cenobite means?

529
00:27:58.359 --> 00:27:58.579
No.

530
00:27:59.380 --> 00:28:02.480
It refers to a member of a communal religious order.

531
00:28:03.700 --> 00:28:04.519
Oh, okay.

532
00:28:04.579 --> 00:28:07.940
So then when you look at them with their very

533
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:14.119
disciplined behavior, They're all clearly dressed a specific way, ceremonial.

534
00:28:15.099 --> 00:28:16.460
It suggests a kind of priesthood.

535
00:28:16.829 --> 00:28:17.180
It does.

536
00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:21.450
So then if you want to go even deeper with it,

537
00:28:21.630 --> 00:28:26.630
they're self-mutilation, possibly self. Self because of them as one unit.

538
00:28:27.069 --> 00:28:27.210
Right.

539
00:28:27.230 --> 00:28:30.130
They might mutilate each other. But it is almost like

540
00:28:30.190 --> 00:28:32.130
religious mortification. I don't know if you're familiar with the

541
00:28:32.150 --> 00:28:34.450
practice of religious mortification. Yeah, I'm familiar with that, yeah.

542
00:28:34.769 --> 00:28:39.559
Which is often... In many faiths, it's a way to

543
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.940
experience suffering as a route beyond ordinary existence.

544
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:44.599
Yeah.

545
00:28:45.140 --> 00:28:49.279
So that's something that's interesting too. But then the question becomes,

546
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:51.869
so are they transformed in some way? Obviously they are

547
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:54.630
beyond living in death, life and death. There's a part

548
00:28:54.650 --> 00:28:57.630
where she says, go to hell. And they're like, no. Yeah.

549
00:28:58.369 --> 00:28:59.430
Basically already there.

550
00:28:59.549 --> 00:29:01.950
Sweetheart. Been there, done that, took pictures, bought the t-shirt.

551
00:29:02.569 --> 00:29:05.450
But so is it spiritual transformation or is it more just,

552
00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:09.039
torture given, like, ceremonial garb.

553
00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:11.569
Okay. I.

554
00:29:13.299 --> 00:29:15.940
When I first watched the movie, and as I've watched it,

555
00:29:16.420 --> 00:29:19.759
I do get the idea, the feeling that it is

556
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:25.059
a religious... Undertone? What was the phrase that you were

557
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:25.640
torturing themselves?

558
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:26.119
Oh, mortification.

559
00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:31.700
Yeah, religious mortification. I've gotten that vibe from it that

560
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:37.650
just they were already... So into torture that they were

561
00:29:37.710 --> 00:29:42.990
pulled into suffering. that was so beyond human experience that

562
00:29:43.009 --> 00:29:46.410
it became almost like ecstasy. That's kind of like the

563
00:29:46.450 --> 00:29:47.279
vibe that I got.

564
00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:50.150
Well, with the major S & M influence that the

565
00:29:50.170 --> 00:29:52.960
movie definitely has rolling through it. And Clive Barker was

566
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:59.430
never shy about saying he was, I believe, a gay

567
00:29:59.450 --> 00:30:02.509
man he's definitely most of his lovers have been men

568
00:30:02.549 --> 00:30:04.849
like he's known live live in lovers and stuff his

569
00:30:04.869 --> 00:30:07.029
whole life i don't know he could be bisexual doesn't

570
00:30:07.049 --> 00:30:09.549
really matter but he definitely was like hanging in those

571
00:30:09.630 --> 00:30:14.430
scenes in the 70s and 80s which would influence it

572
00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:19.779
he himself always identified punk catholicism and snm clubs as

573
00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:21.880
major influences on the cenobites.

574
00:30:21.460 --> 00:30:24.549
Directly I can see that a million percent.

575
00:30:25.069 --> 00:30:27.109
But yeah, there is that question of, is it just

576
00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:31.750
that have they discovered something beyond human existence or beyond

577
00:30:31.789 --> 00:30:35.509
human experience? Or if you wanted to go on the

578
00:30:35.569 --> 00:30:39.269
other side, it could be that they've actually just simply

579
00:30:39.390 --> 00:30:43.890
lost something that's essentially human inside them. And that's something

580
00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:46.519
I've always bounced around. I don't have a, I don't have,

581
00:30:46.819 --> 00:30:49.559
these are just thoughts. I don't have a concept necessarily.

582
00:30:50.230 --> 00:30:55.789
Well, and then you could also ask, are they beings

583
00:30:55.869 --> 00:31:01.640
that have just come about to give suffering its own

584
00:31:01.700 --> 00:31:02.920
corporeal form?

585
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:07.819
Could be, but they're so beyond the suffering that humans understand.

586
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.660
So that's where it gets a little confusing for me.

587
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:13.569
On one hand, they could be the personification of suffering,

588
00:31:13.589 --> 00:31:17.289
but they're beyond suffering almost. Yeah. So I don't know.

589
00:31:17.819 --> 00:31:20.759
That one's a little hard to kind of dig up.

590
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.180
But of course, what was it? I wrote it down somewhere.

591
00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:27.599
In a more recent interview, Barker did say he initially

592
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.710
wanted to title the film Sadomasochists from Beyond the Grave.

593
00:31:34.930 --> 00:31:35.650
I'd watch that.

594
00:31:36.710 --> 00:31:39.789
Who wouldn't? But yeah, so there's a lot more to

595
00:31:39.890 --> 00:31:42.859
unpack about Hellraiser, and we'll get to it right after this.

596
00:31:50.910 --> 00:31:55.829
So we get introduced to Frank and then pretty quickly

597
00:31:55.890 --> 00:32:00.549
get introduced to his brother, Larry. Yeah. And Julia.

598
00:32:01.490 --> 00:32:04.549
And Larry, I want to mention, played by the legendary

599
00:32:04.710 --> 00:32:09.319
Andrew Robinson, one of the finest character actors ever. And

600
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:11.299
he's still around, too. For some reason, I thought he'd

601
00:32:11.339 --> 00:32:13.380
passed away recently, and I'm happy to see he has not.

602
00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:14.420
He's 84 years old.

603
00:32:14.539 --> 00:32:15.299
Oh, good for him.

604
00:32:15.339 --> 00:32:19.339
But he... was famous for playing the serial killer Scorpio

605
00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.109
in Dirty Harry that kind of made him a household name.

606
00:32:22.509 --> 00:32:22.990
Oh, cool.

607
00:32:23.289 --> 00:32:25.430
And then he played one of my favorite Star Trek

608
00:32:25.450 --> 00:32:28.829
characters of all time, Garak, in Star Trek Deep Space Nine.

609
00:32:29.410 --> 00:32:32.549
But he's just a really fascinating performer, actor. He's written

610
00:32:32.589 --> 00:32:36.509
a few books in his day. He wrote a book called,

611
00:32:36.529 --> 00:32:38.150
I cannot remember the name of it right now, A

612
00:32:38.190 --> 00:32:42.039
Stitch in Time, I think, which was a book written

613
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:44.480
as if it was written by Garak from Deep Space Nine.

614
00:32:44.539 --> 00:32:45.339
He wrote it himself.

615
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:46.160
That's fun.

616
00:32:46.910 --> 00:32:49.269
So he's done a lot of really cool work. I

617
00:32:49.269 --> 00:32:51.390
don't know. I've just always found him really fascinating. But anyway,

618
00:32:51.829 --> 00:32:55.380
he's a great addition because Larry is really milquetoast. He's

619
00:32:55.740 --> 00:32:57.759
not totally milquetoast. He does seem to have an edge

620
00:32:57.799 --> 00:32:58.539
to him at times.

621
00:32:58.680 --> 00:32:59.099
He does.

622
00:32:59.299 --> 00:33:04.059
But correct me if I'm wrong. So he's married to Julia. Obviously,

623
00:33:04.099 --> 00:33:07.910
this is a second marriage. In part because Julia looks

624
00:33:07.950 --> 00:33:10.470
a little bit younger, but more so because once his

625
00:33:10.509 --> 00:33:13.029
daughter's around, once Kirstie's around, it's very clear that they

626
00:33:13.069 --> 00:33:16.450
are not related, that they're trying to get along. Yes.

627
00:33:17.309 --> 00:33:21.829
So to me, it seemed like Larry is mostly just

628
00:33:21.930 --> 00:33:26.130
reactionary toward Julia. That Julia is clearly has an undercurrent

629
00:33:26.150 --> 00:33:30.059
of being unhappy, has an undercurrent of being, oh, what

630
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:34.900
do you call it? Restless. Yes. And I think that's

631
00:33:34.980 --> 00:33:37.619
what puts Larry in kind of a position because it

632
00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:40.710
seems like whenever his character is around other people or whatever,

633
00:33:41.089 --> 00:33:44.609
he's a pretty affable person. He's pretty funny. He's pretty

634
00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:47.049
easy to get along with. His daughter seems to adore him.

635
00:33:47.069 --> 00:33:47.829
Oh, yeah.

636
00:33:47.869 --> 00:33:50.529
Which suggests that he must be pretty kindly. His daughter is,

637
00:33:51.069 --> 00:33:52.529
I would say, probably 20.

638
00:33:52.529 --> 00:33:52.690
Yeah.

639
00:33:52.869 --> 00:33:55.849
Because she's been away at college. And the film is

640
00:33:55.890 --> 00:33:59.910
all about them moving, well, him and Julia moving into

641
00:33:59.950 --> 00:34:03.990
this house that he grew up in. Because it sounds

642
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:07.880
like they may have hit some financial issues or personal

643
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:10.340
issues when they lived in Brooklyn.

644
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:10.440
Yeah.

645
00:34:11.179 --> 00:34:14.480
Yeah, but for some reason it has become clear that

646
00:34:14.500 --> 00:34:16.980
it's better for them to move into his childhood home.

647
00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:20.360
And it's especially convenient because his brother Frank had been

648
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.780
living there for a while, but they haven't heard from Frank.

649
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:23.599
Well, squatting.

650
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:24.940
Squatting, yeah.

651
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:27.280
Because it's not like he kept the electricity on or anything.

652
00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:29.300
He just slept there and, you know.

653
00:34:29.619 --> 00:34:30.800
Just kept his shit there.

654
00:34:30.909 --> 00:34:35.710
Kept his gross photos and stuff there. And he basically

655
00:34:35.989 --> 00:34:38.449
tells her that they're going to move in there, I'm

656
00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:40.750
guessing in part because the house is paid for, but also.

657
00:34:41.309 --> 00:34:43.989
He has a new job or he got transferred. They

658
00:34:44.010 --> 00:34:45.369
don't make it clear. It doesn't sound like he'd been

659
00:34:45.409 --> 00:34:47.730
unemployed for a long time or anything. No. But he

660
00:34:47.789 --> 00:34:49.989
basically and they don't say exactly where it is. We

661
00:34:50.030 --> 00:34:52.559
assume it's somewhere else just outside of New York City

662
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:54.079
is the vibe I get by how they were saying,

663
00:34:54.099 --> 00:34:56.059
what about Brooklyn? It makes me think it was like

664
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:59.280
this is Long Island or Westchester or a place that's

665
00:34:59.380 --> 00:35:01.280
just outside of New York. You do have to take

666
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:03.000
a long bus ride to get to New York City,

667
00:35:03.699 --> 00:35:07.320
but you are still technically basically outside New York. Yeah.

668
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:09.699
But he mentions about Julia that this is a great

669
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:11.869
place for her to start up again for her work.

670
00:35:12.849 --> 00:35:16.670
So suggesting that maybe she had hit some personal issues. Mm-hmm.

671
00:35:16.949 --> 00:35:19.150
There does seem to be this undercurrent that she doesn't

672
00:35:19.170 --> 00:35:21.010
want to live there, but that he's clearly doing this

673
00:35:21.349 --> 00:35:23.849
to benefit her. Yeah. But we don't get a lot

674
00:35:24.230 --> 00:35:25.070
of expansion on that.

675
00:35:25.710 --> 00:35:25.869
Yeah.

676
00:35:25.969 --> 00:35:29.030
And I like it that way, that they come in

677
00:35:29.329 --> 00:35:33.969
and there's obviously tension because moving is not fun.

678
00:35:34.110 --> 00:35:35.010
Yeah, it's very stressful.

679
00:35:35.969 --> 00:35:39.050
But- There's also this, yeah, like you said, there's this

680
00:35:39.110 --> 00:35:42.150
tension of him trying to offer this olive branch of

681
00:35:42.190 --> 00:35:43.929
this is going to be good for both of us.

682
00:35:44.570 --> 00:35:46.670
This will be good, not just for me, this will

683
00:35:46.690 --> 00:35:48.730
be good for you. And she just turns up her

684
00:35:48.769 --> 00:35:51.010
nose at it. Yeah, but this isn't what I want.

685
00:35:51.329 --> 00:35:52.889
So why does it even matter? Yeah.

686
00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:55.250
Sort of thing. Well, but she also won't admit what

687
00:35:55.289 --> 00:35:57.590
she wants. And we find out very quickly when we

688
00:35:57.610 --> 00:36:04.639
see a flashback that Frank, the terminally hedonistic monster family member,

689
00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:08.559
Had shown up the day before their wedding or within

690
00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:09.780
a week of their wedding, something like that.

691
00:36:09.820 --> 00:36:11.440
Very shortly before their wedding.

692
00:36:11.460 --> 00:36:15.519
And basically seduced Julia. And then they began having this

693
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:20.639
on again, off again thing. Yeah. Which is extra fascinating

694
00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:27.230
because Frank is dismissive and cruel and intense.

695
00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:28.030
Mm-hmm.

696
00:36:28.670 --> 00:36:32.539
And Larry is... the opposite he wants her to be

697
00:36:32.579 --> 00:36:34.300
happy he would do anything to make her.

698
00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:37.860
Happy he's dedicated there's constant moments where he's asking what

699
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:39.639
do you need what can i do like yeah for

700
00:36:39.659 --> 00:36:42.849
you no problem you got it he's very dedicated to

701
00:36:42.909 --> 00:36:45.769
her and very into their marriage and she has this

702
00:36:45.809 --> 00:36:48.170
kind of darkness but then the other funny thing is

703
00:36:49.130 --> 00:36:51.949
this is another deeper dichotomy of hellraiser a voice found

704
00:36:51.989 --> 00:36:53.409
really fascinating.

705
00:36:53.590 --> 00:36:58.909
Julia's attitude is that she will be freed by frank Right?

706
00:36:59.219 --> 00:36:59.429
Right.

707
00:36:59.449 --> 00:37:00.510
Because she's trapped.

708
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:01.090
Yeah.

709
00:37:01.250 --> 00:37:06.130
But Frank is literal prison. Frank is literal control. That's

710
00:37:06.170 --> 00:37:11.829
his kink. He's a sadist. So it's one of those

711
00:37:11.909 --> 00:37:15.570
freedom through slavery type deals, which I always found really

712
00:37:15.650 --> 00:37:19.230
an interesting story point and an interesting kind of area,

713
00:37:19.289 --> 00:37:21.750
I don't know, to kind of go through in the film. Oh, yeah.

714
00:37:21.829 --> 00:37:26.710
It's really interesting seeing the way she, you know, seeing

715
00:37:26.789 --> 00:37:30.869
the way she interacts with Larry. just a frigid ice queen.

716
00:37:31.070 --> 00:37:33.769
Yeah, she's so cold toward him. And he's honestly, we

717
00:37:34.670 --> 00:37:37.670
just rewatched it. I don't really remember him ever getting

718
00:37:38.730 --> 00:37:40.630
overly crappy with her either.

719
00:37:40.809 --> 00:37:42.849
It seems like he really is kind of sweet. Yeah,

720
00:37:42.869 --> 00:37:47.030
the only time he kind of even vaguely raises his

721
00:37:47.090 --> 00:37:50.659
voice to her is literally when she is trying to

722
00:37:50.739 --> 00:37:54.320
seduce him so that Frank can kill him.

723
00:37:54.340 --> 00:37:54.860
Yeah.

724
00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:57.760
And then she kind of freaks out a little bit

725
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.929
when she kind of comes to terms with the fact

726
00:38:00.949 --> 00:38:04.409
that's what's going to happen and then she's freaking out

727
00:38:04.449 --> 00:38:07.489
while he's on top of her and then he pulls

728
00:38:07.550 --> 00:38:10.239
back and he's just well one minute you're all over

729
00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:12.260
me and the next minute you're telling me to stop

730
00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:15.699
what's going on yeah and i can't and you can't

731
00:38:15.739 --> 00:38:16.559
even blame.

732
00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:18.159
Him no well you can't you can't blame him at

733
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:19.929
all the only other time he seems to get kind

734
00:38:19.949 --> 00:38:22.309
of stern with her is when it involves kirsty yes

735
00:38:22.809 --> 00:38:26.989
with kirsty because the first so Frank is introduced, he's

736
00:38:27.219 --> 00:38:33.710
a corpse with no flesh that's slowly, whatever, reconstituting. Julia

737
00:38:33.849 --> 00:38:37.230
has to bring him more blood. So she's picking up

738
00:38:37.269 --> 00:38:40.210
dudes and bringing them to the house, and then they

739
00:38:40.230 --> 00:38:41.800
think they're going to get lucky, and then they get

740
00:38:41.929 --> 00:38:45.719
real unlucky. Yeah. And it's pretty hideous, it's pretty grotesque.

741
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.300
It's one of the heights of grotesqueness the film gets

742
00:38:49.340 --> 00:38:51.380
to without the Cenobites being directly involved.

743
00:38:51.579 --> 00:38:51.840
Yeah.

744
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:52.860
And.

745
00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:57.780
Meanwhile, Larry's just existing and Frank has been suggesting throughout

746
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:01.619
he would kill Larry and his attitude about when he's

747
00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:04.099
kind of, it's time to bring Larry up here. It's

748
00:39:04.139 --> 00:39:06.909
so matter of fact, there's no consideration at all. He

749
00:39:06.929 --> 00:39:10.070
would just do it, which is really fascinating about him.

750
00:39:10.110 --> 00:39:12.829
But then like when Kirstie's around, when they're moving in

751
00:39:12.869 --> 00:39:15.269
and everything, what is the first thing he does? He

752
00:39:15.329 --> 00:39:19.550
says hi to Kirstie. He's. He's really something I picked

753
00:39:19.590 --> 00:39:22.139
up on a lot this most recent viewing. This is

754
00:39:22.179 --> 00:39:24.199
an empty nest kind of situation.

755
00:39:24.260 --> 00:39:25.659
Oh, a million percent.

756
00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:27.789
Which I think makes him more frustrated with Julia because

757
00:39:27.809 --> 00:39:29.289
he's like, well, now's the time for us to just

758
00:39:29.309 --> 00:39:32.880
enjoy living. together. My daughter's moved out. She's at college.

759
00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:36.260
But the first time we even speak to Christy, he's

760
00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:38.460
on the, or see her speak, he's on the phone

761
00:39:38.510 --> 00:39:39.739
with her saying, I thought you were going to stay

762
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:41.369
with us. And she's like, no, I found a room

763
00:39:41.389 --> 00:39:43.250
while I'm around or whatever.

764
00:39:43.269 --> 00:39:46.769
And he's trying so hard to get her to move

765
00:39:46.849 --> 00:39:47.510
back in.

766
00:39:47.530 --> 00:39:51.250
And That's one of the things I find fascinating. So

767
00:39:51.289 --> 00:39:54.190
then she comes over and the first thing he tells

768
00:39:54.210 --> 00:39:56.989
her is like, Julia is not handling things very well.

769
00:39:57.139 --> 00:39:59.500
She's very stressed out by the move and stuff. So

770
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:01.139
just try to be gentle with her.

771
00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:02.579
Just try to include her a bit more.

772
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:05.699
But that's literally his entire stance is he's just trying

773
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:07.539
to be kind to her. We're good. Go easy on her.

774
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:12.719
So that's where they're at. Yeah. And then later on

775
00:40:12.739 --> 00:40:17.710
to talk about how Larry is. They have this dinner

776
00:40:17.730 --> 00:40:20.940
where they have friends over, mutual friends. And one of

777
00:40:20.980 --> 00:40:24.800
the guys who's there is Kirstie's age. And I get

778
00:40:24.820 --> 00:40:28.360
the sense he's a kid of a family friend or something.

779
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:32.289
He just knows him. But he's very outwardly flirting with Kirstie.

780
00:40:33.250 --> 00:40:34.949
Everybody can tell he's flirting with Kirstie.

781
00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:35.289
Oh, yeah.

782
00:40:38.780 --> 00:40:41.920
Larry's never, he's not bothered by it. He's not annoyed

783
00:40:41.980 --> 00:40:44.090
by it. He really has, it seems to me, and

784
00:40:44.750 --> 00:40:46.449
tell me if I'm wrong, it seems to me like

785
00:40:46.469 --> 00:40:48.210
he has a very healthy attitude about, my daughter's a

786
00:40:48.250 --> 00:40:50.230
woman now. She's grown up. Oh, absolutely. If she was

787
00:40:50.269 --> 00:40:52.030
to have another glass of wine and go home with

788
00:40:52.050 --> 00:40:52.489
this guy.

789
00:40:52.510 --> 00:40:54.010
Yeah, who am I to stop her?

790
00:40:54.050 --> 00:40:55.829
That's her choice as long as she doesn't drive because

791
00:40:55.849 --> 00:40:58.599
you don't want her driving while she's drunk. Which goes

792
00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:00.159
to show the more I think about the movie, the

793
00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:04.420
more I think that Larry's level of perfection is definitely,

794
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:08.039
and by perfection, just like he lacks the kinds of

795
00:41:08.929 --> 00:41:12.110
flaws you would expect from that character yes he's not

796
00:41:12.269 --> 00:41:15.960
jealous yeah he's not controlling not even of his own

797
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:19.619
daughter he's very understanding of you're in college now or

798
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:24.059
all that stuff it can only be purposeful to make

799
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:26.960
it so much worse that anybody would want to betray

800
00:41:27.019 --> 00:41:29.320
him the way julia wants to in the way frank

801
00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:32.110
wants to when it's like larry's perfectly good guy yeah

802
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:33.239
He's the.

803
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:34.699
Kind of guy I would just go down to the

804
00:41:34.900 --> 00:41:36.099
bar and have a beer with.

805
00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:38.619
But he wouldn't because he'd be like, my wife's expecting

806
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:41.199
me home at seven. Yeah, exactly. He wouldn't, yeah. And

807
00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:43.340
it seems to me like all of the strife in

808
00:41:43.389 --> 00:41:44.530
his life is Julia.

809
00:41:45.010 --> 00:41:50.250
I know. And it makes it so much harder as

810
00:41:50.789 --> 00:41:54.570
she just, as they move in and she keeps having

811
00:41:54.690 --> 00:41:56.650
flashbacks and all these memories of her.

812
00:41:56.670 --> 00:41:59.500
Missing Frank. Well, because they're finding his stuff around the

813
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.949
house before she finds Julia. The ultimate stuff, which is

814
00:42:02.030 --> 00:42:03.250
the remains of him. Yeah.

815
00:42:04.789 --> 00:42:05.050
Yeah.

816
00:42:05.090 --> 00:42:08.429
But yeah, they find pictures of him and she's thinking

817
00:42:08.489 --> 00:42:12.010
about him and their experiences. And it's, you know, the

818
00:42:12.030 --> 00:42:13.320
phrase shit rolls downhill.

819
00:42:13.550 --> 00:42:13.780
Yes.

820
00:42:13.929 --> 00:42:18.320
So we see these flashbacks of her and Frank getting

821
00:42:18.340 --> 00:42:21.380
it on and then him being just an absolute asshole

822
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:22.420
to her afterward.

823
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:23.619
Oh, yeah.

824
00:42:24.510 --> 00:42:26.789
What does she turn around and do? And her poor

825
00:42:26.909 --> 00:42:29.630
husband is, oh, honey, I made some lemonade and I

826
00:42:29.670 --> 00:42:31.570
made a sandwich for you. I'm going to go down

827
00:42:31.590 --> 00:42:33.590
to the shop. And she's like, ah, fuck you. Oh,

828
00:42:33.989 --> 00:42:35.949
so shit really does roll downhill.

829
00:42:36.530 --> 00:42:39.610
There's that whole sequence when she's in the bathroom feeling

830
00:42:39.929 --> 00:42:43.210
upset about the guys that she's helped kill and stuff.

831
00:42:43.889 --> 00:42:45.110
And he's just like, are you okay? She's like, I'm

832
00:42:45.150 --> 00:42:48.510
not feeling well. And then he's like, well, is there

833
00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:50.929
anything you need? And she goes, a brandy. And he's

834
00:42:50.949 --> 00:42:53.659
like coming right up. All he wants to do is help.

835
00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:56.320
Which actually, now that we're saying it all out loud,

836
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:01.000
feeds into the fact that he probably was a phenomenal dad. Yeah.

837
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:03.179
Because he's paternal as all get out.

838
00:43:03.260 --> 00:43:03.480
Yeah.

839
00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:04.920
He really is.

840
00:43:04.940 --> 00:43:06.440
Because all he ever wants to do is make her

841
00:43:06.460 --> 00:43:10.320
more comfortable, make her happy, make her feel whatever thing.

842
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:12.800
In a way, that's the only controlling element of him

843
00:43:12.860 --> 00:43:14.480
is just that he wants to be there.

844
00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:15.039
Yeah.

845
00:43:15.940 --> 00:43:18.159
So, of course, that means he's got to get his

846
00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:22.440
fucking skin peeled off. Pardon my French. Ooh, yeah.

847
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:25.340
Yeah. It is always the good ones, isn't it?

848
00:43:25.710 --> 00:43:31.150
Yeah. And the kind of B story is just Kirstie.

849
00:43:31.650 --> 00:43:31.869
Yeah.

850
00:43:32.190 --> 00:43:35.260
Living and trying to figure out what her adult life

851
00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:41.000
is like, trying to understand her dad's devotion to Julia

852
00:43:41.019 --> 00:43:44.719
because she doesn't outwardly hate Julia that we see. But

853
00:43:44.739 --> 00:43:47.320
she does seem frustrated with her. She's like, it's always something.

854
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:50.219
There's always some drama with Julia. Julia's not feeling well.

855
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:51.150
She's so high maintenance.

856
00:43:51.190 --> 00:43:51.469
Yeah.

857
00:43:51.550 --> 00:43:54.150
Julia's not feeling well. Oh, Julia doesn't like moving because

858
00:43:54.210 --> 00:43:57.849
everybody else loves moving. Yeah. Julia doesn't like it when

859
00:43:57.869 --> 00:44:01.570
her parents die. Yeah. Julia's just a person. She's just

860
00:44:01.610 --> 00:44:03.949
a person. Nobody likes these things, but some of them

861
00:44:04.010 --> 00:44:06.329
aren't as big a deal as others. But everything is

862
00:44:06.369 --> 00:44:10.400
all about her. Yeah. But then ironically, Frank in his...

863
00:44:11.110 --> 00:44:15.710
deep desire to dismiss basically everybody somehow makes her feel

864
00:44:15.750 --> 00:44:19.130
more wanted than anything. Because if he is going to

865
00:44:19.170 --> 00:44:23.429
have her, he has to have her entirely. Yes. Which is, again,

866
00:44:23.730 --> 00:44:28.130
leaning into that whole slavery is freedom thing, which is

867
00:44:28.170 --> 00:44:32.159
very BDSM. Oh, yeah. So I don't know, but I definitely,

868
00:44:32.260 --> 00:44:33.679
the more I watch it, the more I'm like, gosh,

869
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:36.760
Larry doesn't have any undercurrents, unless I really missed them,

870
00:44:36.820 --> 00:44:39.440
because we just rewatched it. And I was wide awake

871
00:44:39.500 --> 00:44:41.090
and fully paying attention the whole movie.

872
00:44:41.409 --> 00:44:41.889
Yeah.

873
00:44:42.210 --> 00:44:45.309
Well, and that's because we did a couple years ago.

874
00:44:45.349 --> 00:44:48.409
We've rewatched this, but we rewatched this the other night.

875
00:44:48.489 --> 00:44:52.730
And I just the whole time I was like, oh, man, Larry. Oh, man.

876
00:44:53.130 --> 00:44:56.760
Poor guy. I just feel bad for him more and more.

877
00:44:56.820 --> 00:44:59.320
He's just trying his best to take care of everybody

878
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:00.480
around him. Yeah.

879
00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:00.920
And.

880
00:45:01.929 --> 00:45:03.650
We don't, I don't know. Do they say, I think

881
00:45:03.690 --> 00:45:03.969
they met.

882
00:45:04.010 --> 00:45:04.130
Yeah.

883
00:45:04.150 --> 00:45:06.909
They mentioned that her mother's dead. Yes. Kirstie's mother is dead.

884
00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:10.019
They don't mention like how long or, but it is

885
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:13.760
enough to know. And he was clearly from the little

886
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:17.500
bit that we get, cause moving the mattress and that's

887
00:45:17.539 --> 00:45:20.559
what kind of sets off a bunch of the events,

888
00:45:21.059 --> 00:45:23.590
moving the mattress. He had to have a couple of guys,

889
00:45:23.690 --> 00:45:26.809
big burly guys help him move it. And when Kirstie

890
00:45:26.849 --> 00:45:29.489
comes by the big girly burly guys, they see her.

891
00:45:29.530 --> 00:45:32.900
She's a good looking girl. And, They start making comments

892
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:36.239
to Frank. Oh, she really takes after her mom. And

893
00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:38.780
he says, well, she's dead. Oh, yeah.

894
00:45:38.820 --> 00:45:40.239
He does. He just says her mother's dead.

895
00:45:40.699 --> 00:45:44.159
And kills the vibe. And again, that's the only time

896
00:45:44.179 --> 00:45:48.610
that he shuts people down is when they're like legitimately being.

897
00:45:48.829 --> 00:45:48.909
Yeah.

898
00:45:48.929 --> 00:45:50.889
And those dudes were annoying from the beginning. They're like

899
00:45:51.010 --> 00:45:54.809
asking for beer. While they're working for him, they're not

900
00:45:54.849 --> 00:45:56.510
doing a good job. He's having to help them the

901
00:45:56.550 --> 00:45:57.090
whole time.

902
00:45:57.150 --> 00:45:57.369
Yeah.

903
00:45:57.710 --> 00:46:00.130
And he gets injured because they're not doing their job.

904
00:46:00.190 --> 00:46:02.449
Because they're not paying attention to anything. And yeah, it's

905
00:46:02.530 --> 00:46:05.980
a lot. My vibe was that he married Julia probably

906
00:46:06.019 --> 00:46:07.360
give or take 10 years ago.

907
00:46:07.820 --> 00:46:08.019
Yeah.

908
00:46:08.300 --> 00:46:10.380
That would be my vibe because when they do the flashback,

909
00:46:10.420 --> 00:46:13.260
she just has a different hairstyle and she comes off

910
00:46:13.300 --> 00:46:16.019
just younger. Yeah. In a way, he's not quite so

911
00:46:16.099 --> 00:46:22.119
frigid and so standoffish. And then the time goes by. Clearly,

912
00:46:22.650 --> 00:46:25.909
Her and Kirstie didn't bond very much. Kirstie definitely wants

913
00:46:25.969 --> 00:46:28.349
out of the house, but still has an incredible affinity

914
00:46:28.389 --> 00:46:30.389
for her father. She just wants out of the house.

915
00:46:30.429 --> 00:46:32.690
And maybe it was because Julia was a nightmare to

916
00:46:32.710 --> 00:46:33.309
live with for her.

917
00:46:33.329 --> 00:46:35.909
Or maybe little Bernie just needs to fly.

918
00:46:35.929 --> 00:46:37.219
I don't know. Julia makes me think.

919
00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:39.000
It was probably Julia.

920
00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:44.099
But yeah, so that leads into a really funny anecdote

921
00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:46.179
about the making of the film. But we'll get to

922
00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:57.059
that right after this. So when the film was being made,

923
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:03.800
there was some claims that, as I mentioned, Clive Barker

924
00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:05.420
did not really direct the film.

925
00:47:05.780 --> 00:47:06.139
Okay.

926
00:47:06.860 --> 00:47:10.659
The claim was that in reality, the film was directed

927
00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:16.670
by the editor of Hellraiser, Tony Randell. And the reason

928
00:47:16.690 --> 00:47:20.230
that name may sound familiar is not because he's not

929
00:47:20.289 --> 00:47:25.389
Tony Randall, the actor. But because Tony Randell went on

930
00:47:25.449 --> 00:47:26.789
to direct Hellraiser 2.

931
00:47:26.789 --> 00:47:28.429
Oh, gotcha.

932
00:47:28.909 --> 00:47:31.829
And a lot of other films. Tony Randell, and he was...

933
00:47:32.730 --> 00:47:35.090
IMDb is saying he was an uncredited editor on the

934
00:47:35.110 --> 00:47:38.010
first one. Maybe that is the case. But he's a

935
00:47:38.050 --> 00:47:43.590
very experienced editor. He's edited more than 100 films. Still

936
00:47:43.650 --> 00:47:47.329
editing movies to this day. But as far as directing,

937
00:47:48.289 --> 00:47:53.239
he has done... Let's see. His first feature was Hellraiser 2.

938
00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:55.000
Then he did Children of the Night, which is a

939
00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:57.760
vampire movie that I actually like quite a bit. Then

940
00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:01.239
he directed Amityville 1992, It's About Time, which is my

941
00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:04.280
favorite of the Amityville sequels. Then he did a film

942
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:07.280
called Ticks, which I've also been a huge fan of.

943
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.639
And he directed a boatload of segments on Beyond Belief

944
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:12.980
Factor Fiction. Oh, fun. So he did a bunch of stuff,

945
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.739
but some people have claimed that he was secretly directing

946
00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:20.769
the movie. Randell does not. Okay. In fact, he says

947
00:48:20.869 --> 00:48:24.570
that what happened was the, some of the studio people

948
00:48:25.010 --> 00:48:29.789
that were financing Hellraiser got nervous because they were looking

949
00:48:29.949 --> 00:48:35.329
at the dailies and their exact response was, is this

950
00:48:35.429 --> 00:48:42.219
entire movie just people talking in a stairway? Which I

951
00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:46.079
think makes sense because there is a lot of scenes

952
00:48:46.099 --> 00:48:49.099
where In that stairway. Yeah, and a lot of dialogue

953
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:52.840
because it is a marriage drama. But Randell was the

954
00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.599
one who supposedly either was looking at the footage. It's

955
00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:56.889
been a while since I heard the story, but he

956
00:48:56.909 --> 00:48:59.750
was either looking at the footage himself as an editor

957
00:48:59.989 --> 00:49:02.989
or he was visiting set regularly. And he was the

958
00:49:03.050 --> 00:49:05.449
one that came to them, according to him, and just said, no,

959
00:49:05.469 --> 00:49:08.429
this is good stuff. He's getting really good stuff. The

960
00:49:08.469 --> 00:49:11.360
effects are really good. And they did end up amping

961
00:49:11.389 --> 00:49:15.610
the effects up. Because the Cenobites arrived and stuff, they

962
00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:18.449
decided to make it way crazier. That's why all those

963
00:49:18.469 --> 00:49:21.030
shots of the walls cracking apart. and stuff. A lot

964
00:49:21.050 --> 00:49:23.809
of that was decided later on to be done. But

965
00:49:24.289 --> 00:49:28.579
it is a testament to the film's errors as a

966
00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:33.019
just kind of a marriage drama, family drama, that the...

967
00:49:33.340 --> 00:49:35.469
producers could look at the dailies and be like, so

968
00:49:35.489 --> 00:49:37.429
does everybody just talk in a staircase in this movie?

969
00:49:37.449 --> 00:49:39.630
Because there are a lot of scenes in the staircase.

970
00:49:39.809 --> 00:49:41.739
And ever since I heard that, every time I watch it,

971
00:49:41.769 --> 00:49:44.170
I do unintentionally think about, wow, there are a lot

972
00:49:44.190 --> 00:49:47.610
of scenes in staircases. In the one staircase, rather. Because

973
00:49:47.650 --> 00:49:50.170
the house is a three-level house. Yeah. So there's a

974
00:49:50.190 --> 00:49:54.230
lot of that staircase travel stuff. But I always like

975
00:49:54.250 --> 00:49:56.699
to bring that up because now when you watch Hellraiser,

976
00:49:57.219 --> 00:50:00.440
anyone listening, you will immediately think of how many times

977
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.260
are they in the staircases.

978
00:50:03.190 --> 00:50:03.969
We should start counting.

979
00:50:05.030 --> 00:50:06.750
Gosh, it's probably obscene.

980
00:50:08.289 --> 00:50:10.130
I'd like to see the script breakdown for that.

981
00:50:11.150 --> 00:50:13.730
I'm sure it just says interior staircase, but, you know,

982
00:50:13.829 --> 00:50:15.489
and night, maybe, or day.

983
00:50:15.510 --> 00:50:19.969
I don't know. I don't know. Well, but speaking of

984
00:50:20.010 --> 00:50:21.090
the effects, though.

985
00:50:21.550 --> 00:50:21.710
Yeah.

986
00:50:21.730 --> 00:50:26.960
Because that is one of the things that was legendary

987
00:50:27.019 --> 00:50:30.360
to me. Like, hearing about it was, oh, man, the

988
00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:34.150
effects of Hellraiser are so insane. Like, And it did

989
00:50:34.289 --> 00:50:40.849
impress me the first time I saw it, Frank's regeneration sequence.

990
00:50:41.210 --> 00:50:41.570
Oh, yeah.

991
00:50:42.309 --> 00:50:46.480
But what caught me this time is the score during

992
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:49.739
that sequence. The entire score of the movie is just gorgeous,

993
00:50:49.820 --> 00:50:54.059
I feel. But for that sequence especially, it's got this

994
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:59.940
drama and almost a romantic quality to it that really

995
00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:03.860
plays with your expectations because what's happening on screen is

996
00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:06.500
so viscerally disgusting.

997
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:08.500
I always got the sense that it was meant to

998
00:51:08.539 --> 00:51:12.570
be seductive because the whole concept is seductive for lack

999
00:51:12.610 --> 00:51:15.409
of a better term. But the music, the score has

1000
00:51:15.449 --> 00:51:19.789
always been heavily loved and rightfully so. Apparently there was

1001
00:51:19.829 --> 00:51:23.829
an original score being made before Christopher Young came in

1002
00:51:23.889 --> 00:51:28.150
and did the main score. And the abandoned music from

1003
00:51:28.190 --> 00:51:30.869
the film has gotten a lot of chatter over the years.

1004
00:51:31.469 --> 00:51:34.650
Christopher Young, the composer of Hellraiser, said that his firsthand

1005
00:51:34.670 --> 00:51:39.019
recollection was that Coyle was the other composer's name. Coyle's

1006
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:42.099
experience with the technical demands of scoring a feature was

1007
00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:47.679
just way too difficult. It was very difficult for him.

1008
00:51:48.469 --> 00:51:52.050
But then some people in the legend space claim that

1009
00:51:52.090 --> 00:51:55.099
it's because the music was too scary. But Christopher Young

1010
00:51:55.139 --> 00:51:56.820
says that wasn't quite what was going on. It was

1011
00:51:56.860 --> 00:51:59.570
that the demands were too much for the composer. And

1012
00:51:59.619 --> 00:52:01.909
I don't know of Coyle's other work, so I can't

1013
00:52:01.949 --> 00:52:05.269
really speak to it. But no, the music is definitely

1014
00:52:05.309 --> 00:52:05.869
a standout.

1015
00:52:08.769 --> 00:52:12.969
Yeah, I would have to. Christopher Young, I'd be curious

1016
00:52:13.010 --> 00:52:17.599
to see what other films he scored. Just because it

1017
00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:20.460
was like the whole thing was really moving. And I

1018
00:52:20.619 --> 00:52:25.190
really liked the. use of silence in particular scenes too.

1019
00:52:25.849 --> 00:52:29.110
Like especially the scene toward the end where Frank is

1020
00:52:29.889 --> 00:52:34.650
chasing Kirstie through the house and suddenly the score goes

1021
00:52:34.710 --> 00:52:38.550
silent and we really just pay so much attention to

1022
00:52:39.130 --> 00:52:42.739
the tension between those two. Really artfully done.

1023
00:52:43.539 --> 00:52:47.159
Christopher Young has had in a very long career of

1024
00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:51.920
compositions just an immense amount Avenging Angel, DEFCON 4. You

1025
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:53.679
wouldn't know those movies. Nightmare on Elm Street 2. Okay.

1026
00:52:54.699 --> 00:52:58.750
He did the later, the 80s Twilight Zone series. Invaders

1027
00:52:58.789 --> 00:53:03.010
from Mars, which was for Tobey Hooper. Then Hellraiser. Then he's...

1028
00:53:03.030 --> 00:53:05.090
I'm cutting out a bunch. He did the music for

1029
00:53:05.110 --> 00:53:08.170
Hellraiser 2 as well. The Fly Part 2. Hider in

1030
00:53:08.190 --> 00:53:09.719
the House, which is one of my favorite kind of

1031
00:53:09.860 --> 00:53:12.579
silly horror movies. And it goes on and on. The

1032
00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:18.000
Dark Half with George Romero. Tales from the Hood. Species Virtuosity.

1033
00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:23.320
He's got literally... 139 credits on IMDb as recent as 2026. Wow.

1034
00:53:23.380 --> 00:53:26.860
So he's still doing a lot.

1035
00:53:26.980 --> 00:53:30.539
Yeah. He's been a very sought after composer for almost

1036
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:32.900
four decades or no more than four decades.

1037
00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:33.199
Yeah.

1038
00:53:33.239 --> 00:53:35.920
Damn. And coil, who is, I just found his credit

1039
00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:38.159
is only credited as coil. I guess it's not his

1040
00:53:38.199 --> 00:53:40.960
last name. I guess that's just his name. Apparently I

1041
00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:46.250
think he was a band member in, I cannot find,

1042
00:53:46.349 --> 00:53:48.550
why is it not giving me more info? I think

1043
00:53:48.590 --> 00:53:52.579
he was in a, oh, okay, so now I get

1044
00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:55.199
it now. Coyle was an experimental music group in London

1045
00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:56.639
at the time. I see.

1046
00:53:56.659 --> 00:53:57.260
Okay, that makes sense.

1047
00:53:57.280 --> 00:53:59.780
So yeah, they were just not prepared for the level

1048
00:53:59.960 --> 00:54:02.889
of work that a composition could be. I'll tell you

1049
00:54:02.909 --> 00:54:07.889
right now, most pro composers, really solid professional composers that

1050
00:54:07.909 --> 00:54:11.250
you're working on smaller budgets, their turnaround is three to

1051
00:54:11.289 --> 00:54:13.860
four weeks for the entire film score.

1052
00:54:14.099 --> 00:54:14.380
Damn.

1053
00:54:15.099 --> 00:54:17.019
When you're on really big movies, you might have months

1054
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:20.300
and months, but generally it's very short. And I've talked

1055
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:23.599
to musicians who are not film composers who have definitely

1056
00:54:23.679 --> 00:54:25.659
been like, what? When they hear they could have two

1057
00:54:25.710 --> 00:54:28.170
or three weeks, but then people who've composed a lot,

1058
00:54:28.849 --> 00:54:31.250
two weeks, three weeks seems totally normal to them. So

1059
00:54:31.670 --> 00:54:33.630
maybe that was part of it. Just freaking them out.

1060
00:54:33.710 --> 00:54:35.730
Cause I don't know. Yeah.

1061
00:54:35.809 --> 00:54:39.030
It is a totally different time span than say writing

1062
00:54:39.070 --> 00:54:41.130
an album or something where you could take all the

1063
00:54:41.170 --> 00:54:41.730
time you want.

1064
00:54:42.110 --> 00:54:42.329
Yeah.

1065
00:54:42.550 --> 00:54:43.159
Theoretically.

1066
00:54:43.889 --> 00:54:44.010
Yeah.

1067
00:54:44.780 --> 00:54:47.619
So, but yeah, the music is very, it's phenomenal.

1068
00:54:47.900 --> 00:54:52.980
It is. It is. But also phenomenal is, well, phenomenal

1069
00:54:53.079 --> 00:54:55.400
is a weird way to put it, but the sequence

1070
00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:59.630
where Frank comes back to life still really holds up

1071
00:55:00.070 --> 00:55:02.510
to this day. And you and I were like, as

1072
00:55:02.550 --> 00:55:04.969
we were watching it, I was trying to guess how

1073
00:55:05.050 --> 00:55:06.269
some of the shots were done.

1074
00:55:06.289 --> 00:55:09.010
Oh, yeah. With the reverse motion. Yeah.

1075
00:55:09.070 --> 00:55:09.300
Yeah.

1076
00:55:09.340 --> 00:55:15.010
Backwards melting, backwards pulling liquids away, things like that. Very

1077
00:55:15.110 --> 00:55:16.869
kind of classic movie trickery.

1078
00:55:17.090 --> 00:55:22.690
Yeah. Or his kind of muscles reforming where it was

1079
00:55:22.809 --> 00:55:26.030
clearly wax had been melted, but they just filmed it,

1080
00:55:26.230 --> 00:55:27.210
filmed it in reverse.

1081
00:55:27.250 --> 00:55:27.389
Yeah.

1082
00:55:27.409 --> 00:55:28.030
That was kind of cool.

1083
00:55:28.050 --> 00:55:28.710
It's classic.

1084
00:55:29.030 --> 00:55:33.019
But Julia can look at all this and she's still

1085
00:55:33.099 --> 00:55:36.940
just remembering all the hot and sexy times they had together.

1086
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:40.880
Well, she was scared as shit until he said, it's Frank.

1087
00:55:42.250 --> 00:55:44.070
Yeah, and then it all just kind of comes back

1088
00:55:44.110 --> 00:55:44.369
to her.

1089
00:55:44.710 --> 00:55:47.409
Well, it's also worth mentioning that Frank is portrayed by

1090
00:55:47.650 --> 00:55:48.869
three different people.

1091
00:55:49.190 --> 00:55:49.489
Yes.

1092
00:55:49.630 --> 00:55:53.599
In the film because of the level of transformation he

1093
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:56.960
goes through. Yes. So I'm trying to find the... Well,

1094
00:55:57.559 --> 00:56:02.019
he's performed by two different actors and then he's performed

1095
00:56:02.179 --> 00:56:04.280
by the actor who plays Larry.

1096
00:56:04.570 --> 00:56:04.820
Yeah.

1097
00:56:04.989 --> 00:56:07.530
Because Larry ends up being him. Yes.

1098
00:56:07.949 --> 00:56:08.130
So.

1099
00:56:08.909 --> 00:56:09.989
Or he ends up being Larry.

1100
00:56:10.110 --> 00:56:11.269
Well, it depends on how you look at it.

1101
00:56:11.289 --> 00:56:12.190
Tomato, potato.

1102
00:56:13.289 --> 00:56:13.429
Go on.

1103
00:56:13.429 --> 00:56:17.969
I said what I said. But yeah, initially Julia is

1104
00:56:18.789 --> 00:56:25.429
very terrified when this mass of keeping bones and viscera

1105
00:56:25.550 --> 00:56:28.320
starts coming to life in front of her. But then

1106
00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:33.039
he starts talking and she realizes it's Frank. And that's

1107
00:56:33.159 --> 00:56:37.239
when she kind of starts hatching this scheme with him.

1108
00:56:37.260 --> 00:56:44.400
But You had a really interesting thought last night. As Frank,

1109
00:56:45.139 --> 00:56:51.570
as she lures victims and Frank feeds and he gains

1110
00:56:52.230 --> 00:56:55.429
more and more of his body back, there's a scene

1111
00:56:55.469 --> 00:56:58.190
where they're like, he's sitting there smoking a cigarette and

1112
00:56:58.210 --> 00:57:00.730
he says that now that he's got nerve endings again,

1113
00:57:01.210 --> 00:57:03.010
this is the first time he's been able to taste

1114
00:57:03.090 --> 00:57:07.039
anything in a really long time. But That just means

1115
00:57:07.099 --> 00:57:10.960
that when the Cenobites do finally find him, he is

1116
00:57:11.320 --> 00:57:14.980
able to fully experience all of the pain they have

1117
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:16.780
in store for him all over again.

1118
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:22.969
Yeah, once he steals Larry's skin, the skin starts to take,

1119
00:57:23.969 --> 00:57:26.949
and then the Cenobites show up and rip him apart

1120
00:57:26.989 --> 00:57:30.510
all over again. So because of his desire to have skin,

1121
00:57:31.309 --> 00:57:34.719
he pretty much gets to suffer the fate of the

1122
00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:36.110
flesh again. once more.

1123
00:57:36.590 --> 00:57:39.090
All over again. So it does have kind of those

1124
00:57:39.170 --> 00:57:41.989
layers of the more you desire for something, the more

1125
00:57:42.030 --> 00:57:44.130
control it can have over you.

1126
00:57:44.190 --> 00:57:46.190
Yeah, definitely. I would say that's pretty fair.

1127
00:57:47.300 --> 00:57:54.320
So yeah, but as things are developing, Kirstie starts to

1128
00:57:54.340 --> 00:57:58.059
get a sense of something's going on. She has a

1129
00:57:58.099 --> 00:57:59.500
nightmare about it.

1130
00:58:00.110 --> 00:58:02.489
Yeah, about something horrible happening to her father. Yeah.

1131
00:58:03.150 --> 00:58:08.429
And this is She calls, like, in a panic. And

1132
00:58:08.889 --> 00:58:13.000
just how dismissive Julia is continues to drive home, like,

1133
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:16.800
how much Kirstie cares for her dad and how little

1134
00:58:17.239 --> 00:58:20.920
Julia cares. Because, yeah, it's weird to be an adult,

1135
00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:23.420
a grown adult, and call up your dad in the

1136
00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:24.659
middle of the night and be like, I had a

1137
00:58:24.739 --> 00:58:27.670
horrible nightmare. Are you okay? But at the same time, like,

1138
00:58:28.829 --> 00:58:31.769
you got to be a little understanding. But Julia was not.

1139
00:58:32.289 --> 00:58:35.920
At all. Yeah, yeah. Has very little care for anyone.

1140
00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:41.960
But as Kirstie, you had mentioned that Kirstie was flirting

1141
00:58:41.980 --> 00:58:44.889
with that one guy at the party. She does eventually,

1142
00:58:45.030 --> 00:58:47.409
that's when she has a nightmare, she's back at home

1143
00:58:47.449 --> 00:58:47.889
with him.

1144
00:58:47.909 --> 00:58:47.989
Yeah.

1145
00:58:49.010 --> 00:58:51.690
So as I was thinking about it, I thought that

1146
00:58:51.730 --> 00:58:57.389
was really interesting because sometimes I think it's easy to

1147
00:58:58.309 --> 00:59:02.699
make this a moral or a sexual purity thing. kind

1148
00:59:02.739 --> 00:59:06.059
of story but that's not really it's not that simple

1149
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:11.179
because Kirstie is an adult. She drinks and she goes

1150
00:59:11.219 --> 00:59:15.449
home with Steve. She's got her own adult life. That

1151
00:59:15.570 --> 00:59:21.409
isn't necessarily what attracts the Cenobites to her. What brings

1152
00:59:21.469 --> 00:59:25.809
the Cenobites to her is literally just opening the puzzle box. Yeah,

1153
00:59:25.869 --> 00:59:29.599
I think that's another reason that I've really enjoyed this movie.

1154
00:59:30.260 --> 00:59:36.510
is the moral ambiguity and just the depth to Kirstie's character.

1155
00:59:36.530 --> 00:59:40.130
Because she clearly cares for her dad. Even if she

1156
00:59:40.170 --> 00:59:43.449
doesn't get along with Julia, she really does try her

1157
00:59:43.489 --> 00:59:46.940
best to make her feel included up until the moment

1158
00:59:46.980 --> 00:59:49.719
she realizes that she's cheating on her dad.

1159
00:59:49.739 --> 00:59:51.840
I think that's putting it lightly.

1160
00:59:53.670 --> 00:59:57.179
When she's working in the pet store and that weird

1161
00:59:57.260 --> 01:00:00.460
vagrant guy is there, she's not super mean to him,

1162
01:00:00.659 --> 01:00:03.340
even when he's really weird and off-putting to her. So

1163
01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:09.280
she's got this sense of being very empathetic toward other

1164
01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:10.789
people that I really like.

1165
01:00:10.949 --> 01:00:12.329
Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure.

1166
01:00:12.510 --> 01:00:18.090
And it makes her a really relatable character. But, yeah,

1167
01:00:18.230 --> 01:00:18.670
as she.

1168
01:00:21.170 --> 01:00:26.530
Realizes what's going on with Julia because her dad told her,

1169
01:00:26.710 --> 01:00:31.000
try to make Julia feel more included. So Kirstie goes

1170
01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:34.579
over unannounced one day to kind of stop in and

1171
01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:40.840
see how Julia's doing and notices her taking some strange

1172
01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:46.829
guy into the house. And that's not all because then

1173
01:00:46.969 --> 01:00:53.159
she sees... This strange guy getting attacked by Julia and

1174
01:00:53.469 --> 01:00:56.230
some monstrous body thing.

1175
01:00:56.250 --> 01:00:59.320
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a way to put it.

1176
01:01:00.489 --> 01:01:02.130
I would freak out. I don't know about you.

1177
01:01:02.489 --> 01:01:04.059
Depends on the day of the week. What I had

1178
01:01:04.099 --> 01:01:05.360
for lunch. That kind of thing.

1179
01:01:06.019 --> 01:01:10.500
But, Julia, this is when we realize... that she's also

1180
01:01:10.619 --> 01:01:14.460
smart and she's resourceful. Because as this is going down,

1181
01:01:14.539 --> 01:01:18.619
she realizes, she sees the puzzle box and she realizes

1182
01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:23.039
that Frank wants it. So she grabs it and throws

1183
01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:25.239
it out the window so that he can't get it.

1184
01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:28.610
Because anything that Frank wants, she doesn't want him to

1185
01:01:28.670 --> 01:01:31.670
have it. And I think it's also worth mentioning that

1186
01:01:31.769 --> 01:01:36.090
she doesn't initially realize, just like Julia, she doesn't initially

1187
01:01:36.190 --> 01:01:41.219
realize who Frank is. It's not until he starts being

1188
01:01:41.340 --> 01:01:44.840
really creepy and handsy and says, come to daddy, it's

1189
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:51.469
your uncle Frankie. That's when she realizes. And that's important

1190
01:01:51.489 --> 01:01:54.969
that plays into the end of the movie because she

1191
01:01:55.010 --> 01:01:58.469
doesn't really realize what Frank has done to her dad

1192
01:01:58.590 --> 01:01:59.949
until he says, come to daddy.

1193
01:02:00.190 --> 01:02:00.409
Yeah.

1194
01:02:00.590 --> 01:02:04.150
Before that, when he's in, we never see, we only

1195
01:02:04.230 --> 01:02:07.429
have it suggested that Frank is killed. or not Frank

1196
01:02:07.469 --> 01:02:10.010
is killed, that Larry is killed and Frank takes his

1197
01:02:10.050 --> 01:02:14.730
skin until she shows up and sees him and he

1198
01:02:14.829 --> 01:02:18.949
seems just off his hairline. There's blood at his hairline.

1199
01:02:18.969 --> 01:02:20.119
His eyes are a different color.

1200
01:02:20.179 --> 01:02:24.000
His eyes are dark brown instead of blue, which is

1201
01:02:24.059 --> 01:02:28.039
a big one. And the whole sequence where he's talking

1202
01:02:28.099 --> 01:02:30.719
to her and comforting her and she does believe it's

1203
01:02:30.739 --> 01:02:34.579
him is, is a really great testament to how scary

1204
01:02:34.639 --> 01:02:37.619
the idea of having that level of trust in someone

1205
01:02:37.929 --> 01:02:40.389
and them being not only not who you thought they were,

1206
01:02:40.510 --> 01:02:45.449
but the epitome of a bad actor. Yeah. Because much

1207
01:02:45.550 --> 01:02:48.730
like Frank could look at Larry as just whatever, I'm

1208
01:02:48.769 --> 01:02:52.750
going to use his skin to be back. He looks

1209
01:02:52.809 --> 01:02:55.730
the same way at his own niece as just whatever.

1210
01:02:55.769 --> 01:02:59.090
This is another flesh vessel that can be used for

1211
01:02:59.130 --> 01:03:04.500
whatever I may need. And that alone is terrifying because

1212
01:03:04.539 --> 01:03:08.380
we know that there's no limit to the depravity that

1213
01:03:08.420 --> 01:03:09.179
he's interested in.

1214
01:03:09.500 --> 01:03:09.739
Yeah.

1215
01:03:10.139 --> 01:03:12.809
With that in mind, we'll take a quick break and

1216
01:03:12.849 --> 01:03:15.150
come back with more Cenobite-y goodness.

1217
01:03:23.699 --> 01:03:28.980
So, Kirstie has thrown the puzzle box out the window.

1218
01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:29.559
Right.

1219
01:03:29.659 --> 01:03:33.079
And thinking fast, she runs out the house, grabs the

1220
01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:38.219
box and hightails it. And in shock, wakes up in

1221
01:03:38.239 --> 01:03:42.889
the hospital later. And this is where the movie, the

1222
01:03:42.929 --> 01:03:44.550
tone of the movie starts to turn.

1223
01:03:45.250 --> 01:03:45.489
Yeah.

1224
01:03:46.670 --> 01:03:49.750
And just a little bit. Because she wakes up in

1225
01:03:49.769 --> 01:03:55.570
the hospital and the doctor wants an explanation of where

1226
01:03:55.690 --> 01:03:57.309
she got the box.

1227
01:03:57.329 --> 01:03:57.429
Right.

1228
01:03:58.300 --> 01:04:02.639
And she can't tell him. So he's like, okay, well,

1229
01:04:02.659 --> 01:04:05.019
you just stay here. I don't know why a doctor

1230
01:04:05.079 --> 01:04:08.969
would leave a patient unattended with just a random object

1231
01:04:09.030 --> 01:04:11.530
that they found, but they decide that's a great idea.

1232
01:04:12.170 --> 01:04:16.440
So she starts playing with the puzzle box and caressing it.

1233
01:04:16.550 --> 01:04:19.130
And again, we get this feeling that it may be

1234
01:04:19.949 --> 01:04:24.889
guiding her in the way that she interacts with it.

1235
01:04:25.940 --> 01:04:31.710
But even when she's touching it. It's got this sensual

1236
01:04:31.869 --> 01:04:36.369
sexualness to it. And as she touches it, little lights

1237
01:04:36.789 --> 01:04:42.739
shimmer all around, and then a portal, a doorway, opens.

1238
01:04:43.719 --> 01:04:48.840
And we get a small taste of the world that

1239
01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:53.579
the Cenobites come from. It's not fully expanded like it

1240
01:04:53.679 --> 01:04:56.889
is in Hellraiser 2, but it's just enough of that

1241
01:04:57.010 --> 01:05:03.150
taste of Kind of the weird, twisted darkness that is there.

1242
01:05:03.170 --> 01:05:07.150
Yeah, we get little echoes of it, mainly because they

1243
01:05:07.170 --> 01:05:09.219
didn't have a lot of budget to work with. Yeah.

1244
01:05:09.530 --> 01:05:14.760
So it's pretty sparse, but it's well executed when they

1245
01:05:14.800 --> 01:05:18.260
do it. Apparently, I did a little checking during the break.

1246
01:05:18.659 --> 01:05:24.179
Barker described the lament configuration as representing the puzzle of desire. Okay.

1247
01:05:25.139 --> 01:05:28.380
And that the box could be easily read as seduction.

1248
01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:34.909
Because it's beautiful, tactile, mysterious, and requires, and this is

1249
01:05:34.949 --> 01:05:38.710
a quote, intimate manipulation with the hands. Okay.

1250
01:05:39.650 --> 01:05:42.989
Well, it does require an intimate manipulation with the hands.

1251
01:05:44.170 --> 01:05:44.489
Right.

1252
01:05:45.269 --> 01:05:45.409
And.

1253
01:05:46.670 --> 01:05:48.769
That's what you were saying already. I was agreeing with you.

1254
01:05:48.849 --> 01:05:49.730
No, I was agreeing too.

1255
01:05:50.329 --> 01:05:52.230
With me agreeing with you? Yeah. Okay.

1256
01:05:52.730 --> 01:05:53.269
Triple agree.

1257
01:05:53.590 --> 01:05:53.909
All right.

1258
01:05:55.349 --> 01:05:56.489
I get as.

1259
01:05:58.730 --> 01:06:02.949
Kirstie's touching it as Frank's touching the box. Yeah, it's

1260
01:06:03.489 --> 01:06:09.409
very sensual. And then we get a juxtaposition of the

1261
01:06:09.550 --> 01:06:16.690
portal opening to this dank, dark labyrinth. And as Chrissy explores,

1262
01:06:16.710 --> 01:06:19.469
because maybe this is a way to escape, she gets

1263
01:06:19.769 --> 01:06:25.650
chased by some sort of creature. And I liked... Just

1264
01:06:25.690 --> 01:06:28.829
from a creature sort of standpoint, I liked this thing

1265
01:06:28.909 --> 01:06:32.179
because it's very clearly not of this world, but it's

1266
01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:34.880
also very clearly not one of the Cenobites.

1267
01:06:35.579 --> 01:06:36.460
Okay, yeah, I would agree.

1268
01:06:36.659 --> 01:06:41.039
So it operates on a different level, even from them.

1269
01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:45.880
And so it becomes, for a moment, like a very

1270
01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:50.099
different kind of threat. But once she escapes that threat,

1271
01:06:50.579 --> 01:06:54.050
this is when she... turns around and she makes her

1272
01:06:54.110 --> 01:06:59.190
way back into the hospital. But now that she has

1273
01:06:59.590 --> 01:07:03.489
opened and interacted with the puzzle box, now the Cenobites

1274
01:07:04.469 --> 01:07:08.369
can find her because that's the whole agreement. Once you

1275
01:07:08.429 --> 01:07:11.710
solve the box, they come to get you. And so

1276
01:07:12.570 --> 01:07:18.250
now she's faced with being dragged away for torment beyond

1277
01:07:19.050 --> 01:07:20.150
even comprehension.

1278
01:07:20.170 --> 01:07:20.250
Yeah.

1279
01:07:21.190 --> 01:07:24.409
Well, and one thought that just crossed my brain is

1280
01:07:25.250 --> 01:07:28.409
in a way it's almost like forbidden knowledge. Once you solve,

1281
01:07:28.489 --> 01:07:30.349
if you get so curious that you have to solve

1282
01:07:30.389 --> 01:07:34.150
the box, you know that nothing good, let's go for,

1283
01:07:34.289 --> 01:07:37.710
from Kirstie's perspective, she knows that nothing good can come

1284
01:07:37.789 --> 01:07:38.659
from this box.

1285
01:07:39.030 --> 01:07:39.300
Yeah.

1286
01:07:39.449 --> 01:07:45.239
Because it appeared to be important to this monstrosity and yeah.

1287
01:07:45.639 --> 01:07:45.880
Yeah.

1288
01:07:45.900 --> 01:07:49.380
A whole lot of yeesh there. But the curiosity gets

1289
01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:51.960
the better of her, and once you've solved and opened

1290
01:07:51.980 --> 01:07:55.159
the box, you never will be the same. Even if

1291
01:07:55.300 --> 01:08:00.119
you escape not physically scathed, just seeing the Cenobites, seeing

1292
01:08:00.300 --> 01:08:07.329
the lights and the rumblings and these mutilated beings. Yeah, yeah.

1293
01:08:07.369 --> 01:08:09.369
You're never going to see life the same ever again.

1294
01:08:09.389 --> 01:08:12.349
So in a way, it's like a forbidden knowledge, eating

1295
01:08:12.409 --> 01:08:15.130
the apple, Adam and Eve kind of deal.

1296
01:08:15.210 --> 01:08:17.289
No, I like that.

1297
01:08:17.779 --> 01:08:18.319
I like that.

1298
01:08:19.220 --> 01:08:23.579
And that does, the forbidden knowledge kind of slant to

1299
01:08:23.659 --> 01:08:28.329
it does play a bit more, especially into the direct sequel,

1300
01:08:28.390 --> 01:08:33.550
like the second one. Because that's why Kirstie eventually makes

1301
01:08:33.569 --> 01:08:37.750
her way back to Leviathan, is because she has that

1302
01:08:37.829 --> 01:08:40.300
knowledge and there's kind of not much more you can

1303
01:08:40.340 --> 01:08:43.340
do with it other than continue pursuing it in your

1304
01:08:43.380 --> 01:08:44.319
own way. Yeah.

1305
01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:47.789
In that way, it's corrupting. It is. It is.

1306
01:08:47.810 --> 01:08:52.909
And it's interesting because we do throughout the entire series,

1307
01:08:52.949 --> 01:08:54.590
and this is going on a bit of a tangent

1308
01:08:54.670 --> 01:08:58.989
away from just this singular movie, but throughout the entire series,

1309
01:08:59.050 --> 01:09:04.420
we do see that everyone has something that will corrupt them.

1310
01:09:05.539 --> 01:09:09.890
For Frank, it was hedonism. And eventually for Kirstie, it's

1311
01:09:09.930 --> 01:09:13.630
something else, possibly revenge. Further on down the line, justice.

1312
01:09:15.069 --> 01:09:17.270
The sense of unbridled justice.

1313
01:09:17.380 --> 01:09:18.520
I would call it vengeance.

1314
01:09:18.609 --> 01:09:19.460
Vengeance, yes.

1315
01:09:19.539 --> 01:09:21.300
I feel like justice is too soft.

1316
01:09:21.460 --> 01:09:28.659
Yes, vengeance. So, yeah, everybody's got something. Everybody's got something

1317
01:09:28.699 --> 01:09:33.380
that will corrupt them or that can be used against them.

1318
01:09:33.960 --> 01:09:36.979
So it's just interesting in that regard to think of

1319
01:09:37.020 --> 01:09:40.000
it that way, that it's the key that could unlock that.

1320
01:09:40.699 --> 01:09:44.250
Yeah, well, and the fact is, It may only have

1321
01:09:44.289 --> 01:09:48.630
been marketed even to Frank as just being beyond anything,

1322
01:09:49.510 --> 01:09:53.159
because that would be accurate. It's beyond anything that people know.

1323
01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:57.600
Well, and that's the very first line of the film.

1324
01:09:58.100 --> 01:10:00.520
And the very last line of the film is the

1325
01:10:00.579 --> 01:10:05.260
merchant talking about the box. What's your pleasure, sir? That's

1326
01:10:06.079 --> 01:10:11.560
the thesis statement there is that what drew Frank in

1327
01:10:11.739 --> 01:10:15.680
was trying to seek the ultimate pleasure. But obviously that

1328
01:10:15.699 --> 01:10:19.819
didn't turn out great because there's balance to everything. So

1329
01:10:19.960 --> 01:10:22.699
getting the ultimate pleasure, you also got to experience the

1330
01:10:22.739 --> 01:10:23.359
ultimate pain.

1331
01:10:24.140 --> 01:10:27.859
And it depends on how you look at the ending too. Okay.

1332
01:10:28.039 --> 01:10:28.319
Yeah.

1333
01:10:29.180 --> 01:10:31.380
Because I kind of look at the ending as like

1334
01:10:31.420 --> 01:10:37.529
the box gets, you know, I guess recirculated gets taken back.

1335
01:10:37.390 --> 01:10:39.890
Into the world. I meant the ending of the antagonist,

1336
01:10:39.909 --> 01:10:40.520
which is Frank.

1337
01:10:41.270 --> 01:10:42.399
Oh, I see what you're saying.

1338
01:10:42.439 --> 01:10:46.720
The full blown ending story. Because so she opens the

1339
01:10:46.760 --> 01:10:50.020
box and they're ready to tear her soul apart and

1340
01:10:50.060 --> 01:10:52.579
all this stuff. And she tells them, what about Frank?

1341
01:10:53.140 --> 01:10:55.359
He escaped you. And they're like, no, he didn't. No

1342
01:10:55.439 --> 01:10:58.670
one has ever escaped us, which also plays into the

1343
01:10:58.710 --> 01:11:01.189
motivation in part two, where they won't let go of her.

1344
01:11:01.989 --> 01:11:04.659
No one has ever seen the Cenobites and escaped.

1345
01:11:05.180 --> 01:11:05.399
Yeah.

1346
01:11:06.260 --> 01:11:09.079
So that's when she makes the bargain. I can take

1347
01:11:09.119 --> 01:11:12.819
you to Frank if you'll let me go. And they

1348
01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:16.260
are just like, take us to him. Yeah. So and

1349
01:11:16.300 --> 01:11:19.279
that's where the film really gets into delivering a just

1350
01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:21.039
desserts kind of deal.

1351
01:11:21.600 --> 01:11:21.779
Mm hmm.

1352
01:11:22.600 --> 01:11:27.649
No, I because now. Well, now not only are we

1353
01:11:28.029 --> 01:11:31.380
really hoping that Kirstie can get away from the Cenobites,

1354
01:11:32.300 --> 01:11:36.100
because she's cool, she's a nice character, and we want

1355
01:11:36.140 --> 01:11:41.279
her to live, but also we are starting, like, we

1356
01:11:41.380 --> 01:11:44.760
have a feeling that something bad has happened to her dad,

1357
01:11:44.859 --> 01:11:47.500
but she doesn't necessarily know that yet.

1358
01:11:47.979 --> 01:11:49.840
Yeah, well, the last thing she's going to assume is

1359
01:11:49.859 --> 01:11:51.159
that somebody's wearing his flesh.

1360
01:11:51.539 --> 01:11:55.539
Yeah, that's generally not in anyone's bingo card.

1361
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:57.579
That's generally not accomplishable.

1362
01:11:58.439 --> 01:11:58.659
Yeah.

1363
01:11:58.979 --> 01:12:01.210
It took a massive team of scientists to do it

1364
01:12:01.250 --> 01:12:05.390
in face-off, and that was just the face. It's true.

1365
01:12:05.909 --> 01:12:10.789
But, so, as an audience, not only are we rooting

1366
01:12:10.850 --> 01:12:13.439
for her because we want her to survive, we're also

1367
01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:18.720
starting to root for Frank to get what's coming to him.

1368
01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:21.479
Yeah, the Cenobites are definitely going to bring his comeuppance,

1369
01:12:21.539 --> 01:12:24.159
but now, when she shows up back at the house

1370
01:12:24.270 --> 01:12:28.609
and realizes... all of this and realizes that her father's

1371
01:12:28.630 --> 01:12:32.189
been killed, it shifts. And that was something that really

1372
01:12:32.229 --> 01:12:34.270
hit me this last time watching it. It shifts from

1373
01:12:34.289 --> 01:12:39.890
her just wanting to survive and throw Frank under the

1374
01:12:39.930 --> 01:12:43.560
bus because clearly he's in league with something horrible and

1375
01:12:43.619 --> 01:12:46.659
Julia on top of that, who's clearly worse than she

1376
01:12:46.699 --> 01:12:51.359
ever imagined. But now that her father's been killed, there

1377
01:12:51.720 --> 01:12:55.529
is a, now is when the vengeance comes into play. Before,

1378
01:12:55.550 --> 01:12:57.890
it was more of just kind of, this is your fault,

1379
01:12:57.930 --> 01:12:59.789
so this is your problem. But now it's, no, I

1380
01:12:59.850 --> 01:13:04.569
cannot wait to hand you over to these beings. And

1381
01:13:04.670 --> 01:13:09.039
when the box, when she brings the Cenobites to him

1382
01:13:09.739 --> 01:13:13.079
and Frank realizes what's going on and realizes that they're

1383
01:13:13.399 --> 01:13:17.600
coming to collect, he's scared and angry and he tries

1384
01:13:17.699 --> 01:13:20.949
to attack Kirstie. And the Cenobites get him with the chains.

1385
01:13:21.189 --> 01:13:21.649
Yeah.

1386
01:13:21.670 --> 01:13:24.630
And this is where really we establish what the Cenobites

1387
01:13:24.670 --> 01:13:26.470
would be famous for from here on out, which is

1388
01:13:26.529 --> 01:13:31.649
the chain foo, the sheer amount of chain murder and

1389
01:13:32.229 --> 01:13:37.039
chain torment as hooks dig into his hands and his arms.

1390
01:13:37.060 --> 01:13:37.979
Yeah, his face.

1391
01:13:38.260 --> 01:13:38.520
Yeah.

1392
01:13:38.680 --> 01:13:40.979
And when they finally pull his face to the point

1393
01:13:41.000 --> 01:13:44.489
where it is almost the shape of a football... He

1394
01:13:44.529 --> 01:13:46.229
looks at the camera and delivers one of the most

1395
01:13:46.329 --> 01:13:49.750
famous lines that isn't delivered from Pinhead in the entire series.

1396
01:13:50.369 --> 01:13:53.430
He just takes a beat and as he licks his lips,

1397
01:13:53.470 --> 01:13:55.569
he says, Jesus wept.

1398
01:13:56.289 --> 01:13:56.609
Yeah.

1399
01:13:57.189 --> 01:13:59.569
Which is quite a statement.

1400
01:13:59.590 --> 01:14:03.170
Yeah, quite a quote there.

1401
01:14:03.949 --> 01:14:04.449
Yeah.

1402
01:14:04.829 --> 01:14:09.140
I'm curious because you're kind of the interview reader guy.

1403
01:14:09.229 --> 01:14:14.640
Has Clive Barker ever said like why he... chose that line?

1404
01:14:15.560 --> 01:14:19.250
I wondered that too. From what I recall, there are

1405
01:14:19.270 --> 01:14:26.170
a few different reasonings. It's from John 1135, which is

1406
01:14:26.250 --> 01:14:27.210
just Jesus wept.

1407
01:14:27.550 --> 01:14:29.569
Yeah, the shortest sentence in the Bible.

1408
01:14:29.829 --> 01:14:33.250
Yeah, and in the Gospel of John, Jesus arrives after

1409
01:14:33.289 --> 01:14:36.060
the death of Lazarus. Even though Jesus is about to

1410
01:14:36.109 --> 01:14:38.880
raise Lazarus from the dead, that's kind of Lazarus' whole

1411
01:14:39.119 --> 01:14:42.279
claim to fame, he sees the grief around him and cries.

1412
01:14:43.189 --> 01:14:47.609
The phrase therefore carries associations with death, grief, compassion, and

1413
01:14:47.670 --> 01:14:49.930
then possibly resurrection.

1414
01:14:50.430 --> 01:14:51.270
Okay.

1415
01:14:51.970 --> 01:14:58.489
Okay. Yeah. So apparently, though, Andrew Robinson claims that he

1416
01:14:58.569 --> 01:15:01.569
came up with saying Jesus wept. He claims that in

1417
01:15:01.609 --> 01:15:05.189
the script it said, fuck you or fuck off. Now,

1418
01:15:05.229 --> 01:15:07.250
of course, that's according to IMDb trivia, so it could

1419
01:15:07.270 --> 01:15:10.130
be totally a lie. But he claims that he thought

1420
01:15:10.170 --> 01:15:14.020
of saying, why don't I say Jesus wept? Which I

1421
01:15:14.060 --> 01:15:18.619
could see a well-read actor like him improvising that line,

1422
01:15:18.689 --> 01:15:21.930
especially because it is famous for being the shortest part

1423
01:15:21.970 --> 01:15:24.569
of the Bible, the shortest passage of the Bible. Yeah.

1424
01:15:24.829 --> 01:15:27.930
He said he remembered Jesus wept being an expression from

1425
01:15:27.970 --> 01:15:33.250
his childhood. So it wasn't necessarily thought of immediately as

1426
01:15:33.289 --> 01:15:37.090
a biblical reference so much as a thing that he

1427
01:15:37.149 --> 01:15:37.930
heard people say.

1428
01:15:37.949 --> 01:15:38.029
Okay.

1429
01:15:39.189 --> 01:15:42.470
But in the film it does, it feels obscenely appropriate.

1430
01:15:43.119 --> 01:15:47.899
Frank has literally died. He's been resurrected through blood, and

1431
01:15:47.960 --> 01:15:50.699
now he's going to be destroyed again. Yeah.

1432
01:15:51.460 --> 01:15:53.180
No, it's incredibly fitting.

1433
01:15:53.920 --> 01:15:56.239
Yeah. And then, of course, if you wanted to take

1434
01:15:56.260 --> 01:15:59.300
it the opposite literal way and less figurative, it could

1435
01:15:59.319 --> 01:16:04.399
be that Jesus weeps for what's happening or for Frank's resurrection,

1436
01:16:04.619 --> 01:16:09.770
or even that Jesus wept over him finally accomplishing what

1437
01:16:09.810 --> 01:16:16.560
he'd always wanted. in experiencing this ultimate torment pleasure thing. Okay.

1438
01:16:16.640 --> 01:16:18.060
Those are other ways you could look at it.

1439
01:16:18.239 --> 01:16:18.439
Yeah.

1440
01:16:18.560 --> 01:16:21.460
And cause Frank's delivery of it, it does come off

1441
01:16:22.579 --> 01:16:25.100
more mockingly. It doesn't really come off as like he's

1442
01:16:25.159 --> 01:16:28.399
praying or begging or anything like that. He says it

1443
01:16:28.439 --> 01:16:29.340
with kind of a smirk.

1444
01:16:29.729 --> 01:16:30.020
Yeah.

1445
01:16:30.159 --> 01:16:32.390
It's almost smile contemptuous.

1446
01:16:33.329 --> 01:16:36.470
Well, and that's why a lot of people say that

1447
01:16:36.829 --> 01:16:40.319
the ending is, is a bit different than, than people

1448
01:16:40.399 --> 01:16:43.970
might initially assume that in a way, this was Frank

1449
01:16:44.090 --> 01:16:47.689
finally getting what he'd wanted. So he was happy because

1450
01:16:47.729 --> 01:16:53.189
he didn't just experience things beyond comprehension. He experienced resurrection, rebirth,

1451
01:16:53.970 --> 01:16:57.880
and then absorbing the blood and everything would be definitely

1452
01:16:57.920 --> 01:17:01.119
beyond anything he'd ever experienced before. Okay.

1453
01:17:01.159 --> 01:17:01.539
Yeah.

1454
01:17:01.619 --> 01:17:05.770
So now the Cenobites show up and, and, do their

1455
01:17:05.810 --> 01:17:08.130
Cenobite thing to him and he gets to experience it again.

1456
01:17:08.229 --> 01:17:12.750
In a way, the ultimate sensation would be having it

1457
01:17:12.810 --> 01:17:15.909
happen twice. Yeah. Because no one ever has it happen twice.

1458
01:17:15.949 --> 01:17:16.800
Everybody dies.

1459
01:17:17.100 --> 01:17:17.340
Yeah.

1460
01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:20.600
And then that's it. Okay. Maybe. I don't know.

1461
01:17:20.659 --> 01:17:24.340
Yeah, no, I get that. That does put like a

1462
01:17:24.439 --> 01:17:30.380
totally different, a totally different spin on his demise, but

1463
01:17:30.619 --> 01:17:31.550
I kind of like it more.

1464
01:17:32.590 --> 01:17:34.279
Yeah. There are a lot of ways to read it.

1465
01:17:34.310 --> 01:17:37.649
I think it was intentionally played with the expression on

1466
01:17:37.689 --> 01:17:40.590
his face, even through all that makeup, the way he

1467
01:17:41.270 --> 01:17:44.869
his expression comes through pretty well. It's definitely more than

1468
01:17:44.909 --> 01:17:46.130
just a line. Yeah.

1469
01:17:46.949 --> 01:17:52.510
But of course, now that Frank is gone, Kirstie's got

1470
01:17:52.550 --> 01:17:55.770
a problem because the Cenobites are still there.

1471
01:17:56.500 --> 01:17:58.859
Yeah, and they don't seem to want to leave yet,

1472
01:17:58.920 --> 01:18:00.319
even though the bean dip is empty.

1473
01:18:00.539 --> 01:18:01.460
Yeah.

1474
01:18:01.479 --> 01:18:03.479
And we'll dig into that right after this. Not the

1475
01:18:03.520 --> 01:18:05.890
bean dip. Although, because I told you, we'd already ran out.

1476
01:18:14.590 --> 01:18:18.090
So now that Chrissy has to get away from the Cenobites,

1477
01:18:19.350 --> 01:18:26.390
she has to banish them. But Steve, her boyfriend... he

1478
01:18:26.470 --> 01:18:28.529
came to kind of check on her so she's also

1479
01:18:28.569 --> 01:18:31.409
got to try and help him escape now too yeah

1480
01:18:32.069 --> 01:18:37.539
which is great but i liked that kirsty does like

1481
01:18:37.880 --> 01:18:40.960
she ends up being the one saving him like he

1482
01:18:41.039 --> 01:18:45.189
helps but even when the monster the engineer the the

1483
01:18:45.229 --> 01:18:49.810
monster from the labyrinth like starts pursuing them like she's

1484
01:18:49.829 --> 01:18:51.800
the one that kind of like saves him and pushes

1485
01:18:51.859 --> 01:18:54.399
him out of the way right and the whole time

1486
01:18:54.539 --> 01:19:00.850
she's managing to figure out how to reverse the puzzle

1487
01:19:00.869 --> 01:19:04.170
box so that when they come up against the cenobites

1488
01:19:04.390 --> 01:19:07.689
she can banish them or send them back This is

1489
01:19:07.770 --> 01:19:11.949
really the only part of the mythology that like gets

1490
01:19:12.670 --> 01:19:18.100
a little confusing as not like a super confusing, but

1491
01:19:18.119 --> 01:19:22.119
they never really explain very much like how she is

1492
01:19:22.260 --> 01:19:24.720
able to banish them. But she is able to banish them.

1493
01:19:24.819 --> 01:19:30.350
But when the final banishing happens and the house like implodes,

1494
01:19:31.529 --> 01:19:38.409
she goes to burn the box in the rubble. And

1495
01:19:38.449 --> 01:19:43.050
then we see the creepy homeless guy that has been

1496
01:19:43.270 --> 01:19:48.770
following her around. He goes and walks into the fire

1497
01:19:49.010 --> 01:19:53.520
and grabs the puzzle box and transforms into a skeleton

1498
01:19:53.560 --> 01:19:57.100
dragon and flies away. And then we go back to

1499
01:19:57.140 --> 01:20:00.479
the Oriental market and we hear the merchant say, what's

1500
01:20:00.500 --> 01:20:05.000
your pleasure? And it implies that the cycle happens all

1501
01:20:05.199 --> 01:20:08.850
over again. And that's the first time that we watched

1502
01:20:08.909 --> 01:20:12.729
the movie, and even now watching it again, that's one

1503
01:20:12.770 --> 01:20:17.119
of the things that really has such a big draw

1504
01:20:17.159 --> 01:20:25.079
for me is that it does feel like the lament configuration,

1505
01:20:25.199 --> 01:20:29.739
the puzzle box, the Cenobites, it is cyclical and could

1506
01:20:29.819 --> 01:20:33.609
happen again once the right person gets their hands on

1507
01:20:33.630 --> 01:20:36.159
the box, like, all of this could happen.

1508
01:20:35.939 --> 01:20:38.479
All over again. Yeah, there's like a system in place.

1509
01:20:38.560 --> 01:20:42.000
The puzzle box gets retrieved and then gets offered again

1510
01:20:42.779 --> 01:20:46.699
for whatever reason there might be. It makes sense. How

1511
01:20:46.760 --> 01:20:51.270
else would people keep opening it and summoning the Cenobites?

1512
01:20:51.289 --> 01:20:56.590
How would the Cenobites continue to travel the bizarre places

1513
01:20:56.649 --> 01:20:59.130
they do and encounter the people they need to if

1514
01:20:59.170 --> 01:21:02.310
there wasn't some kind of a plan in there somewhere?

1515
01:21:02.350 --> 01:21:03.090
Yeah, yeah.

1516
01:21:03.890 --> 01:21:04.029
So.

1517
01:21:04.739 --> 01:21:12.170
No, but I really liked having the bookend of that line.

1518
01:21:13.029 --> 01:21:14.930
And I know I mentioned it before, but having that

1519
01:21:14.970 --> 01:21:18.770
bookend of the line really does drive home kind of

1520
01:21:18.890 --> 01:21:24.029
the thesis of the movie, which is that the search

1521
01:21:24.109 --> 01:21:29.449
for the ultimate pleasure is going to, could ultimately lead

1522
01:21:29.529 --> 01:21:32.680
to finding the ultimate pain because they're two sides of

1523
01:21:33.060 --> 01:21:33.880
the same coin.

1524
01:21:34.140 --> 01:21:34.359
Yeah.

1525
01:21:35.090 --> 01:21:40.489
But yeah, so, and I personally, because we've watched a

1526
01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:42.699
lot of the sequels together. Sure.

1527
01:21:42.880 --> 01:21:44.319
Nearly all of them, yeah. Yeah.

1528
01:21:44.840 --> 01:21:49.779
And I personally, I don't despise all of the sequels.

1529
01:21:50.300 --> 01:21:53.659
I think most of them are pretty fun, actually. But

1530
01:21:53.819 --> 01:21:58.500
this one for me, I can see why it's a

1531
01:21:58.579 --> 01:22:03.189
classic and why it became so beloved so quickly.

1532
01:22:03.210 --> 01:22:03.289
Yeah.

1533
01:22:03.899 --> 01:22:11.800
Is because it does hit some similar vibes to slasher

1534
01:22:11.840 --> 01:22:14.960
movies and stuff like that, but it is so wholly

1535
01:22:15.020 --> 01:22:21.060
different in its own right as far as the Cenobites

1536
01:22:21.229 --> 01:22:24.689
and the villains and the way that the family drama

1537
01:22:24.869 --> 01:22:28.069
is just so much of the central part of the

1538
01:22:28.130 --> 01:22:30.029
movie really sets it apart.

1539
01:22:30.609 --> 01:22:32.829
And a lot of that was budgetary. The film only

1540
01:22:32.869 --> 01:22:37.229
had a $ 900, 000 budget to work with. Wow. Nobody wanted

1541
01:22:37.270 --> 01:22:40.010
to fund a big budget horror movie with a first

1542
01:22:40.050 --> 01:22:42.229
time director, even if it was Clive Barker.

1543
01:22:42.670 --> 01:22:43.029
Yeah.

1544
01:22:43.130 --> 01:22:46.579
He had zero experience making films. He had written a

1545
01:22:46.619 --> 01:22:49.279
couple of films and a lot of novels and stuff,

1546
01:22:49.319 --> 01:22:51.699
but he'd never done a film as a director at all.

1547
01:22:52.439 --> 01:22:54.659
He really was in and over his head a little bit,

1548
01:22:54.699 --> 01:22:56.399
but that's why the budget was so low. But it

1549
01:22:56.439 --> 01:22:58.520
did over $ 30 million at the box office.

1550
01:22:59.079 --> 01:22:59.539
Damn.

1551
01:23:00.130 --> 01:23:05.390
Good for them. Now, I know that it was filmed

1552
01:23:05.449 --> 01:23:08.029
a lot in, was it in London or was it?

1553
01:23:08.029 --> 01:23:09.270
It was all filmed in London.

1554
01:23:09.350 --> 01:23:12.489
All filmed in London. So it was released in London

1555
01:23:13.010 --> 01:23:14.369
or in England first, right?

1556
01:23:14.430 --> 01:23:17.520
In Europe? Yeah, they did a premiere in London first. Yeah.

1557
01:23:18.399 --> 01:23:18.619
Okay.

1558
01:23:18.779 --> 01:23:22.319
But Clive Barker was established in London. He is British. Yeah.

1559
01:23:22.359 --> 01:23:25.020
So he was born in London. So that was not

1560
01:23:25.340 --> 01:23:26.100
super unusual.

1561
01:23:26.119 --> 01:23:26.779
Okay.

1562
01:23:28.250 --> 01:23:30.250
I was just curious because I was looking at the

1563
01:23:30.449 --> 01:23:31.529
IMDB page.

1564
01:23:31.550 --> 01:23:34.670
Yeah, it says it was released on my first birthday

1565
01:23:34.729 --> 01:23:36.630
in London, September 10th, 1987.

1566
01:23:36.630 --> 01:23:38.909
Ah, happy birthday!

1567
01:23:38.930 --> 01:23:39.010
Then.

1568
01:23:39.909 --> 01:23:40.149
Then.

1569
01:23:40.170 --> 01:23:42.529
That's what I meant.

1570
01:23:42.789 --> 01:23:46.270
Fair enough. But yeah, so Hellraiser, definitely a film that

1571
01:23:46.289 --> 01:23:47.550
gives you plenty to chew on.

1572
01:23:48.310 --> 01:23:48.489
Yeah.

1573
01:23:49.409 --> 01:23:52.449
I highly recommend, if you haven't checking it out, that

1574
01:23:52.470 --> 01:23:56.029
you should, and I'm glad that I'm glad that you

1575
01:23:56.069 --> 01:24:00.420
introduced it to me so early on in my horror

1576
01:24:00.800 --> 01:24:04.640
education because it gave me a lot to think about

1577
01:24:04.680 --> 01:24:07.300
and it helps set me up to appreciate a bunch

1578
01:24:07.340 --> 01:24:08.619
of other horror movies too.

1579
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:11.920
Yeah. It's been its own league at that era for sure.

1580
01:24:12.060 --> 01:24:14.300
And there's, like I said, that's why it had that

1581
01:24:14.359 --> 01:24:18.279
staying power that, and because against all odds, Pinhead ended

1582
01:24:18.359 --> 01:24:21.319
up becoming something everybody wanted to see again and again,

1583
01:24:22.050 --> 01:24:26.010
his makeup design with the, the, nails all the way

1584
01:24:26.050 --> 01:24:28.180
across his face. He wasn't called Pinhead in the first one.

1585
01:24:28.189 --> 01:24:29.430
He was just called Lead Cenobite.

1586
01:24:29.810 --> 01:24:30.130
Yeah.

1587
01:24:30.489 --> 01:24:33.170
And the pins on his face, that was the inspiration

1588
01:24:33.189 --> 01:24:36.909
for that came from a method for applying, for working

1589
01:24:36.949 --> 01:24:40.039
on prosthetics and makeup where you just make somebody's head

1590
01:24:40.100 --> 01:24:40.600
as a grid.

1591
01:24:41.180 --> 01:24:41.520
Oh, really?

1592
01:24:41.539 --> 01:24:43.920
So you can put things there. And then the idea

1593
01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:47.819
came to put pins in the crossing of each grid.

1594
01:24:48.140 --> 01:24:51.510
So it was just a lucky accident of sorts.

1595
01:24:51.850 --> 01:24:56.779
Oh, that's really cool. That's, Interesting. Interesting that a little,

1596
01:24:56.800 --> 01:24:59.920
I don't know, a little design choice could lead to

1597
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:02.199
such a big franchise character.

1598
01:25:02.520 --> 01:25:06.189
Yeah. And made Doug Bradley a household name. Before that,

1599
01:25:06.210 --> 01:25:08.829
I think he was mostly just a play actor. I mean,

1600
01:25:09.029 --> 01:25:11.569
it was between playing the lead Cenobite and playing one

1601
01:25:11.590 --> 01:25:14.170
of the movers. I'm serious. Oh, really? That was what

1602
01:25:14.210 --> 01:25:17.189
he was offered. And he almost went with the mover

1603
01:25:17.229 --> 01:25:21.180
because the mover had more lines. For real, that's how

1604
01:25:21.189 --> 01:25:21.449
it works.

1605
01:25:21.770 --> 01:25:21.989
Yeah.

1606
01:25:22.260 --> 01:25:25.270
Well, he... Pick the right one, I would say.

1607
01:25:26.310 --> 01:25:30.130
Probably. I would say. But yeah, so definitely a great

1608
01:25:30.250 --> 01:25:33.810
addition to your spooky season watch. Hellraiser, while not a

1609
01:25:34.689 --> 01:25:37.720
literal Halloween movie, is a movie that definitely fits in

1610
01:25:37.729 --> 01:25:40.659
Halloween very well. What's a movie that fits into Halloween

1611
01:25:40.779 --> 01:25:46.939
even better and is a very Halloween movie is 1978's Halloween.

1612
01:25:46.960 --> 01:25:48.199
Ah, look at that.

1613
01:25:48.520 --> 01:25:53.560
John Carpenter's original classic that spawned. So many sequels and

1614
01:25:53.819 --> 01:25:58.109
even a remake-ish trilogy. Well, two remake, a remake, a

1615
01:25:58.149 --> 01:26:00.729
sequel to the remake, and then a kind of remake

1616
01:26:00.770 --> 01:26:05.890
sequel trilogy. Halloween has had a very long life in

1617
01:26:06.170 --> 01:26:09.270
cinema and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. It's available

1618
01:26:09.289 --> 01:26:12.930
to watch on Plex, free with ads, AMC Plus with

1619
01:26:12.970 --> 01:26:15.479
your subscription. And of course you can rent or buy

1620
01:26:15.520 --> 01:26:18.359
it anywhere you rent or buy your films. That'll be

1621
01:26:18.380 --> 01:26:21.060
what we're talking about next time on cutting deep as

1622
01:26:21.140 --> 01:26:26.000
spooky season gets thicker and thicker. Yeah. So with that

1623
01:26:26.020 --> 01:26:28.300
all being said, if you guys enjoyed the show, which

1624
01:26:28.340 --> 01:26:29.899
I hope you did, I hope you'll catch us when

1625
01:26:29.939 --> 01:26:34.439
we come back in a week or two and make

1626
01:26:34.479 --> 01:26:36.560
sure you subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. If you

1627
01:26:36.590 --> 01:26:38.409
want to send us an email, we would love to

1628
01:26:38.449 --> 01:26:42.560
hear from you at weekly spooky at gmail.com. Send us,

1629
01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:45.420
your thoughts on the films we've talked about films we

1630
01:26:45.439 --> 01:26:48.340
should talk about, et cetera. We'd be happy to read

1631
01:26:48.380 --> 01:26:51.359
it and yeah, make sure you're subscribed because so many

1632
01:26:51.819 --> 01:26:54.600
pieces of Halloween content are going to be releasing this

1633
01:26:54.640 --> 01:26:57.689
spooky season. It's going to be obscene and maybe even

1634
01:26:57.729 --> 01:26:59.569
hard to keep up with to listen to. Cause I

1635
01:26:59.590 --> 01:27:01.550
can tell you it's hard to keep up with recording.

1636
01:27:02.050 --> 01:27:04.050
And if you want to support us in direct way,

1637
01:27:04.090 --> 01:27:06.729
head to weekly spooky.com slash join for, for as little

1638
01:27:06.770 --> 01:27:09.369
as $ 1 a month, you can get two bonus shows

1639
01:27:09.489 --> 01:27:12.979
every month, my undying gratitude and know you're directly supporting

1640
01:27:12.989 --> 01:27:14.939
the spooky, but now we're going to get out of

1641
01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:17.939
here until next time. Thank you all for listening. Rach,

1642
01:27:17.960 --> 01:27:20.279
you could have the final Cenobite-y word.

1643
01:27:20.939 --> 01:27:25.399
Yeah, I got nothing.

1644
01:27:25.770 --> 01:27:26.090
That'll work.